THE WALL (well... fence actually)

I'm glad Hatter mentioned the economics of all this. The sad thing is, I don't trust the US government to help the South. It isn't only the US government, but also those running the IMF, WTO etc. If we're honest, these organizations have done more harm than good. Shock programs haven't worked*. Neither have the free trade deals. Nafta isn't what I'd call a success and has made life worse for the corn farmers of Mexico. Look down your street and you'll probably see indigenous looking Mexicans rather than people straight out of Mexico city. This is a result of subsidized corn flooding their markets. These kinds of things need to be scrapped.



Chavez isn't the answer either. His price controls have resulted in shortages because the controls don't keep up with inflation. Plus, he's a real piece of shit. He has lowered poverty, but as my friend says "he's done that by putting everybody in poverty.



Simply put, we need democratic structures in the south where the people have a real day. I'm tired of watching the workers get killed in Colombia while they get a backhand in Brazil and Venezuela. Democracy with socialization is what I'd aim for. Of course I'm an anarchist so you probably already figured I might say that.



* I'm not Naomi Klein and am not going to exaggerate my position in shock programs.

 

This is a great thread. Very thoughtful and provocative.

And some views a little ironic...

A couple years ago, I encountered a socialist linking to a white paper on how the free market didnt work and actually INCREASED 3rd world poverty.. he used the IMF efforts in Haiti as an example, how 'care package commodities' put local farmers in the hole.

SPECIFICALLY he pointed to US grown corn. When I pointed out that his example put the lie to the entire treatise, all I got was bluster and a rant on Dubya.

US Grown crops are HARDLY 'Free Market' as long as politico's bow to AgriCorps and AgriGuilds under the pretext of 'Saving the Family Farm'.

As to Mexico, the idea that something has to be done to change things in the homeland is bang on. Problem being as long as there is a buck or a million to be made with bribery, it aint gonna happen.

And as long as the US remains a safety valve for the ambitious wretched, we are gonna have to pay.. and those ambitions will never translate to local rebellion against injustice in their homeland.

Let's take Cuba as an example.. how many think the 'foot on dry land' refugee-return compromise is fair? How many think a fifty year economic embargo is fair {let alone that it works}?

Stupid people will continue to lobby for nonsense that extends misery just on base personal principles, not sound Human Principles. And politicians will continue to take their money.

Human Principles state that when things get bad enough and there's no other way out, you are willing to sacrifice for that change.

What if we could magically convince the illegals working here that they can take their country over and allocate their own resources and strengths fairly? would we caution them against pretty speaking charlatans that will only use them to gain power? Sure we would. But they've seen that already.

And as long as people like George Soros {or Ron Paul, for that matter} can convince those who should know better that they stand for 'free markets' and individual dignity, we're gonna continue to have these problems.

 

Most socialists haven't a clue how to frame arguments. Anybody who understands basic economics knows that subsidized rice and corn isn't market oriented. Its a variation of capitalism, but not free market.


Not sure if that comment was aimed at the above post. If not, pay no attention to this post.

 

I was seizing on an area of agreement with you, 24!

But he knew EXACTLY how to frame his argument for the target reader. 'Ignore the elephant'!

{Mind you I COULD go on with other GOOD features of capitalism.. like how India can now feed herself, and the success of micro-loan grassroot financing in the 3rd world. That should come later}

By the way... I am also amused by the terms and examples you use and how often I can agree with them. You throw in 'anarchy' once in a while, too..

What else would you call the Tea Party movement but a statement against the 'Establishment Business as Usual Politics!' What some might refer to as 'respectful anarchy'.
Like ..uh.. say in NY 23.
heh

 

Agreed - I am in rural Washington and we are surrounded by acres and acres of orchard. Currently there are no automated options in the orchards so it is labor intensive. You are correct - it is a labor source we need as well.
I dont want to kick anyone out that we have encouraged to come, and I keep hoping for a common sense approach for documenting and providing a path to citizenship for those that want it - while also creating a database that can be easily used for employers.

As I was searching around for information I found a number of sites for vigilante groups - man - those guys are serious. Seems to be mostly old white men, and I applaud them for following their sense of duty to secure the border - as long as it is not racially driven or involves any kind of violent activities.
I really need to talk to my bro-in-law on this. He is in AZ and he was (May still be) part of a force that goes on extended - multi-day trips to monitor remote locations. I didnt realize how much of the boarder is in the middle of nowhere and guarded and watched by nobody. Often they make some major drug busts in these remote locations.
One issue with this is what those who are pro-drug legalization - more feet means more money down the 'rat hole' (to quote them).

They had a report on this on NPR this morning - about how our economy is hurting those to our south and how the amount of money being sent back to Mexico is falling dramatically.

Here it is:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =114321374

Also a link to a book about the immigrant experience.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =114290245

Yes - and bombs made by those we indirectly support... A global economy with individuals that are pissed off about one thing or another...

How can that be? Supply increased as the border was closed? Huh?


I am sorry, but I am not equipped to comment on all of the trade issues and the forms of government that are going to make all this better.


As to the labor force:
All I know is that I would like to see a simple and working system for the US to get the labor that we need, and I would like to see the flow of drugs and illegal activity at the border stopped - or at least get as close as we can.

I dont need people dying in the desert in an effort to get work, and I dont need the labor being exploited by scumbags who 'help' them cross. I also dont need this labor force demonized due to a minority of them who cause problems and are involved in violent and illegal activities.

At the same time - I dont need undocumented workers causing huge stress on public services.

It seems like the solution is a system that is responsive and includes a database that works for employers. Also a clear path to citizenship for those that want it, and a modest fine for those that are here to get documented so to appease those that are opposed to amnesty.


As for the Drugs, and other Illegal activities at the border. It may be a rat hole, but I dont see any other option as I have a personal and moral objection to the legalization of drug abuse, and I feel we have an obligation to try and protect our laws of the land by keeping the border closed.

I had a buddy who is Canadian and he married an American. He visited Canada and tried to return to the US, and was not allowed to return. It took 8 months for the process to be sorted out, and he missed the birth of his first son, and his second semester at Harvard Law due to the mess. It is ridiculous that we would keep him out, and yet turn a blind eye to others.

 

I think there's an important point to be made here:

If you went to a Tea Party demonstration, and corraled a group of those protesting illegals, then asked them if they ran across and got to know someone they were working with or in a hospital ER. If you asked: "Will you turn them in?"

I believe most of those answers, like mine, will not just be No.. it would be HELL, NO!

I'm sick and tired of my position being labeled heartless and cruel by those who want political gain by demonizing it.

 

That is the big problem isn't it petty?

Common sense, justice, and decency don't seem to be able to work on this issue because of political posturing. As of now this seems to be a non-issue due to the economy and healthcare so we will have to wait and see if our elected officials can pull it together and come up with something that makes sense.