Privacy Issues II

For starters;
-WWII killed around 72 million
had Nazism prevailed which it was at times close to doing, the factors which you speak of economy, the freedom to prosper, personal security would have descended further and further.

I can appreciate the fact that should radical Islam achieve its goals all aspects of life would be complete and utter hell. The fact is they are far far away from accomplishing that.

WWII WAS complete and utter hell. They were obviously in a great amount of danger as 72million of them died! Not to mention the infrastructure and social consequences. The current threat is no where near causing this amount of harm to the western world. Its a real threat yes, but it is not WWII. To say the threats that we face are greater or equal to threats we face is lunacy, complete lunacy

 

You miss the point.. which is this time we do not really have a formal demarcated enemy and the conflict cannot be escaped.
There are no 'Switzerlands, Brazils or Argentinas' we can move to and ignore the threat.
Therefor it is MORE dangerous
But we will never suffer the 'utter hell of life under Islam' for any period of time.
They simply wont win... it's the life we suffer before they are annihilated that will be hell.

And I know that sounds apocalyptic.. it IS. The longer the threat is ignored in favor of lesser issues, the worse the threat becomes and it IS becoming.

 

I had intended to stay out of this ongoing discussion but you went over the line Smokin.

Before we all jump on Fog for his personal and or political views lets take a step back and remember that the Patriot Act was a bipartisan effort passed only 43 days after 9/11. Both houses of Congress passed the bill with very little discussion.

Gallop polls taken after the passing of the act showed an overwhelming majority of Americans shared Fog's views about the need for greater national security even if they had to give up some civil liberties. As recently as 2005 the poll shows the country is split down the middle on this issue (even though it looks a little one sided on this board).

Gallup Poll statistics[6][7][8]:

Does the USA PATRIOT Act go too far?
Date___________________________Too Far______Not Too Far*
25 August-26 August 2003___________22%__________69%
10 November-12 November 2003_____25%__________65%
16 February-17 February 2004_______26%___________64%
13 April-16 April 2005______________45%___________49%
*Responded as it is a Necessary Tool, About Right, or Not Far Enough

Having read these post I think most would agree that there are times when a citizens individual rights must take a back seat to the government in order for the government to operate effectively (i.e. during a time of war). It is the point in time at which the indiviuals rights should be compromised that is in debate and that is quite simply a matter of personal opinion. For Fog that threshhold has been met and he sees the the need for the government to be able to combat terrorism as a higher priority than his right to have a private phone conversation or a home that is guaranteed free from search and seizure by the government. For many others posting here that threshhold has not been met.

I value my rights and I am not afraid of a terrorist doing harm to my person. However, I do believe they are a real threat to the way of life in the US. I personally am not opposed to the Patriot Act because I do not believe that the additional powers the government has secured from this act are being abused. I am not afraid of a terrorist attack on this country but I do believe one or more will happen again and if the government can stop just one of them then this act has been successful in my opinion. But then again it is just my opinion.

If you disagree with my opinion please exercise your one right that really matters in this debate and find a candidate that will work to repeal this act and VOTE for him or her.

 

pettyfog. I grew up in Germany, under the threat of the Red Army faction. My mother works in the Greater London area, target of IRA, and now Islamic terrorists. Her father is from Belfast. Needless to say, I understand a bit about being under the threat of terrorism.

I will reiterate: the purpose or terrorism is to create political change. They want the populace to be terrified enough to demand policy change in the government. The Islamic terrorists want changed Western agendas in the Middle East and they want the West to be less free, with fewer liberties. They want to remove the West as that "greener pasture." Despite the threat of injury and death, the freedoms our nation enjoys is still the primary reason for immigration by those living in those regimes; there are, afterall, very safe yet totalitarian realms that they can go to.

You are, unfortunately, putting too little value on freedom and too much on life. History has shown that most people, given the choice between emmigrating to a safe place with no freedoms or a more dangerous place with more freedoms, with choose the latter.

 

I need to step back here.

Privacy is important. Its a line to be crossed at no times, save i be suspected of a crime. I know its only a virtual shakedown, but a shakedown none the less. I don't like it at the root... the Patriot Act is a seed that has potential to grow. It distorts the homeostasis of our free society, by throwing off checks and balances... fueled bya neverending war. Its a recipe for disaster. Its got too much potential to become very bad, very quickly.

This is a far different time than any other. The threat is LOUD but the beast is small. Its not 72 million people dying, there is no imperialism, no warfront. Why are we so scared? Isn't that what "they" want? Its hard to understand anyone who is so willing to accept it. I dont understand the thinking of "giving liberty up to keep freedom." We're sacrificing here so they can learn it over there... or however its packaged.

I will however be voting for the only person I think qualified to recieve my vote. I will essentially vote for my rights back, unabated.

A snapshot in history of our legislature should never be the example of the feelings of ALL the people. That is one of its worst. IMO.

 

I never referred to the passing of this act as reflecting ALL the people’s feelings. Sorry if you misunderstood Smokin but if you read the post again you will see the example of the peoples feelings I cited was the gallop poll mentioned in my post. The people polled after this act was passed overwhelmingly agreed with Fog.

I mentioned the passing of the act being a bipartisan effort solely in response to you accusing Fog of being more loyal to his party than to the people. Quite frankly that comment makes you seem as arrogant as you accused Fog of being. He is as entitled to his opinion as you are to yours and because he disagrees in this matter does not make him disloyal to the people of this country.

I will try to answer these questions one at a time.

Why are we so scared? As I said in my post I am not scared. With or without the Patriot Act I believe that more terrorist acts will happen within the US. That in my view point is a given but just because I believe these acts will happen does not mean I live in fear of them happening.

Isn't that what they want? Yes, I believe part of a terrorists power is derived from fear. However, my belief in the Patriot Act does not stem from fear it stems from my belief system of what is right and what is wrong.

Its hard to understand anyone who is so willing to accept it. I dont understand the thinking of "giving liberty up to keep freedom."

Correct me if I am wrong but from this I gather that you value your personal civil liberties more than you value another citizens life. It is your right to do so and I do not have to understand it. I on the other hand value another person’s life more than my civil liberties to a point. To me if one life is saved by this act than I will feel justified that perhaps my civil liberties were inconvenienced. However, I would also lay down my own life to protect your civil liberties. I would fight tooth and nail for our fourth amendment rights if I felt this act was doing anything more than inconviencing them. That is my right and you do not have to understand it.

For the record I do not believe my 4th amendment rights have in any way been taken away. Yes, I do relize that this act has the potential for abuses but until they happen I will not fear that any more than I fear a terrorist attack. It seems unfortunate to me that so many people responding to this thread are so afraid of our govenrnment and what the government migth do. I believe in the power of the vote and will continue to trust that this is the best system of government ever implemented.

 

BarryP. I agree that what we have right now isn't terribly harmful. My fear is that current-state becomes the standard, so nibbling away at some other right becomes "just an inconvenience" until it, too, becomes "current-state." After a certain point, we become like the frog placed in a pot of water that is slowly raised to temperature.

I would rather fight the fight now, at the beginning, since that is the only way we'll return to a state of having those liberties and freedoms.

Also, I'm a firm believer that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. I want the power to be limited by the checks and balances that our Founding Fathers intended.

 

I respect that Andy. I truly do. That is the very reason each of us should exercise our power to vote. Although you may not find it written exactly this way anyplace this country was founded on the right to agree to disagree. It is the fulcrum on which the peaceful turn over of power between political parties is established.

 

This makes more sense. I wish you would have stated it this way from the beginning. I still don't agree with your assessment but I can see where your coming from. While others downplayed the threat of Nazism and Communism, Churchill did not and was accused of warmongering on both accounts, of course in the end he was right. That is always worth thinking about. So I will continue to think about it, but as of now, I don't agree with you.

 

At this point, its a matter of HOW we choose to fight. I firmily believe that we can still win with our freedoms and liberties intact. Will it be more difficult that way? Sure. But to me it is both worth it and, I believe, will result in a longer lasting victory.

 

You guys are great. I wish I had you all as students. Class would be more exciting.

 

Then raise the issue in class... you know that it's not so much the opinion that counts it is thinking about and justifying the opinion.
Look back at what celebrities usually say about their favorite teachers, more often than not.. it is '{teacher} taught me to think!'

As to the soft kudos from Smokin' about how mentally agile I am 'at age 85', why do you think I do this?!!!! The human intelligence needs exercise same as any other muscle or organ.

I have another unsolicited opinion to go with this:

Much mental exercise in class anymore {or maybe always in the past} is less about how to write so as to differ from the accepted view in a cogent manner than how to reframe the view advanced by the instructor or author in a creative way.

Fortunately my career led me to consider method and views that differed with the accepted norms.

 

Trust me mate, I raise issues in class. I say outrageous things trying to get a bite. I show pictures/stories of crazy stuff going on in the world. I show videos, sometimes very biased ones, trying to get a hook. And I'm lucky to get much of anything out of them.

I try to get them interested in the world, but for most of them all they want to do is text-message, listen to ipods, go to the bathroom, gossip, sleep, eat, etc.

But I still try. No intention of a thread-jacking here.

 

Well... think of it this way: Not only is youth wasted on the young, but education as well.

{meaning}
You have to get them either BEFORE they've discovered their crotches or AFTER they discover there's other things that matter, too.*

I never did especially well even in things I was interested in like history and geography.
Why? Because History Exams, as an example, focussed on event dates.
I didnt give a f*** about what month and day it happened, I was fascinated on the connections, cause/effect/WHY!. Only the year and relative timelines should have been addressed.

*
{pf edited to reflect clarification, then edited back because it wasnt as funny

What I meant is now in the original. What I thought is here.}

 

This is my nomination for funniest thing of the week on this message board. I just spit some water up on my keyboard reading this.

 

He aint lyin. Most highschoolers have absoulutly nothing to say about the world. NOTHING. If they do its usally very cliche, like something you'd hear from Bon Jovi.

 

BarryP,

We are not so far apart when it comes to our opinion, except I dont want to have to trust anyone with these powers... The things is, gov't when spying without oversight tend to expand their powers and abuse them until they get caught red handed.

There has been much speculation about these domestic spying issues. There has been reported abuses of this system as it goes... since of course its fundamentally unconstitutional, arguements aside.

The secrecy that comes along with this is the bad part. The lack of success... or the lack of retraction of stories claiming the successes of this program.

I'm glad you value the liberties... thats the most important part.

The fact that in 8 years or 9, there could be someone we never thought would ever take the helm in what i hope to STILL be the worlds most powerful nation. And with this program in place... bad, intentional things could happen.

 

http://www.crooksandliars.com/Media/Play/21815/

2nd time in two weeks the Patriot Act took a hit.