On Hillary..

Discussion in 'Miscellaneous' started by pettyfog, May 23, 2008.

  1. pettyfog

    pettyfog Well-Known Member

    Jan 4, 2005
    Havent had too much to say about her lately but that's because we dont know how she could do much to influence the inevitable outcome.

    But one thing that's come out is her campaign's charges of 'sexism' playing a role in her defeat:

    Peggy Noonan, WSJ: Sex and the Sissy

    The problem with Noonan's piece is that she ignored the obvious... Clinton had the goods on Obama in the beginning but felt such entitlement that she simply waved away what would become a threat.

    From my view on the other side of the river, though, my opinion of Hillary is that she's gained my respect.

    1. She stopped the fishwife scold/screeching to make her points

    2. She picked a core voting segment and went after it

    3. She did not go overboard in her promises

    4 She made Billy Jeff look mortal while he amazed us by 'standing by his woman'.
    - Thus we got a grounding on this couple flawed and prone to the dysfunction that many of us address in our relationships. Made herself 'human'

    5. The more hopeless it looked the calmer she became

    6. She stopped the fishwife scold/screeching to make her points

    Isnt it funny... NOW the Dems finally openly acknowledge the problem with the Clintons. And I, along with a lot of other conservatives, like them more.
  2. Clevelandmo

    Clevelandmo Active Member

    Sep 13, 2007
    I dont like complaints of sexism either, but I believe Hillary has only complained about sexism from the media - and only recently. Hillary has not been whining like Noonan asserts. She's been quite the opposite.

    Watch this video. Obama has not had to put up with anything near this bad - nor has any other male candidate.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcdnlNZg ... re=related

    It used to be that I couldnt stand Hillary but for a lot of the reasons Petty pointed out I quite like her now.
  3. RidgeRider

    RidgeRider Member

    Jan 5, 2008
    Yikes. Being a fellow conservative and living through her and her husbands reign in the 90's, as I am sure you both did as well, I can't find the ability to now like her.....just because she is losing and has had an opportunity now to face the facts she and Billy Bob are not invincible. This is a growth opportunity for her but as Lincoln once said:

    Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's/woman's character, give them power.

    When they had power they destroyed reputations and lives. I can forgive but not find myself liking her.
  4. Clevelandmo

    Clevelandmo Active Member

    Sep 13, 2007
    I guess I like her relative to how I literally hated her before. Good point RR and I like the quote.

    But the media has constantly referred to her appearance and talked about her with references to the "nagging wife, bitchy wife" and other negative female stereotypes. I dont think she has whined about it until now and that impresses me.

    The media wouldnt dare talk about Obama by referring to black stereotypes or say the only reason McCain is a Senator is because he was tortured in Vietnam
  5. Bradical

    Bradical Member

    Apr 22, 2008
    Denver, CO
    Thanks for making that point, Conservative pettyfog. This is what gets missed all of the time when people criticize the Clintons' marriage - that they have a realistic 21st century American marriage. Only they didn't get divorced...
  6. pettyfog

    pettyfog Well-Known Member

    Jan 4, 2005
    Re: Hillary outrage..

    That goes two ways, bud! PAY ATTENTION to how the press is crucifying her for what she DIDNT SAY! These are many who use the same tactics on Dubya!

    And I dont know what Rush has to say on it, but his next show should be good. And if I disagree with him on the attacks on Hillary, dont think I wont say so... and throw appropriate rocks.

    I said when this forum started that 49% of americans DONT LIKE HER, and for the same reason I didnt.. but THIS IS OUTRAGIOUS!

    ANY OF YOU who listen to Olbermann should be ashamed of yourself.

    I posted on TalkLeft, and I'll repeat it here.... "How does it feel to be a 'Virtual Republican'?"!!!!!!

    - - - - -- - - - - - - - -
    Added: In response to below, and above...
    Well, ACTUALLY, this isnt the first such marriage in the White House. There were perhaps some prior, but the most similar might be Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt.
    Or John and Jackie Kennedy
    So it's HARDLY '21st century'.

    In fact I'd submit this paradigm will become MORE rare, whereas in the past the little lady has had the option of keeping her mouth shut if she wanted to share the glory of the position.

    It's a minor thing in the big picture, though... I'd prefer fidelity to country over fidelity to spouse IF I have to make a choice.
  7. FulhamAg

    FulhamAg New Member

    Apr 5, 2008
    San Antonio, Texas
    Except 99% of "realistic 21st century Americans" don't share the Clinton's wealth and power and all of the subsequent motivations that would be factored into whether or not to continue the union.

    You may choose to excuse or justify it with the "everyone else is doing it" argument but that doesn't make it the type of marriage anyone should aspire to. The question is, if you have/had a daughter, is that the marriage you would choose for her? Is that the way you'd want a guy to treat her? Probably not.

    Back to the topic of the thread, the candidates have had a long time in the spotlight. Given that much time to spin, they're bound to find something to resonate at some point. But gaining empathy and garnering a vote are distinctly different.
  8. HatterDon

    HatterDon Moderator

    Mar 18, 2006
    Peoples Republic of South Texas
    For example, whom?


  9. SteveM19

    SteveM19 New Member

    Sep 30, 2007
    Cleveland OH
    Whether Obama, Clinton, or McCain is elected, our country was founded on the idea that once the electoral decision is made, you live with it. Yes, I hear jokes about the Florida and the 2000 election being dusted off, if you are doing that, try to control yourself.

    My point is this: Too often in this country, the office of the presidency is disrespected. The conservatives did this a number of times when Clinton was in office and even worse, when he was overseas. Bush has had this happen sites like the Daily Kos, by a number of other liberal commentators who are promoting their interests over those of the country. Your president is not Charlton Heston, as the bumper sticker said. Even in the Army, when our esteemed Commander in Chief was squandering his moral authority by chasing the tail of interns while he should have been behaving like a grown man and a leader, we still had to remember that as painful as it was to ignore or pass up, he was still our President and we needed to respect him as such. Not everyone could do it. I remember some Air Force General making some crack about our president being a draft-dodging, cheating lowlife. I might be getting the details wrong, it isn't worth my time to research exactly what he said. Soon, he was gone -- forcibly retired. As well as he should have been.

    Something will happen that will make the gasbags on the left and the right pretty upset in November. That includes everyone at the Kos, Ann Coulter, and that Savage character. Whether your horse in the race wins or loses, be sure to respect the process and the decision that is bigger and more important than your personal views. I am still waiting on Alec Baldwin to follow through on his threat to leave the country if Bush was reelected, it would certainly be no great loss.

    Now, vent away on this thread. That is all.
  10. HatterDon

    HatterDon Moderator

    Mar 18, 2006
    Peoples Republic of South Texas
    I'd like you introduce a bunch of you to snopes.com. It's the Urban Legend Website, and it provides a lot of debunking. Here's its entry on Alec Baldwin's "threat to leave the country:"


    It seems that this threat may well be based on an article in a German magazine that couldn't tell the difference between Baldwin and Robert Altman [hint, Baldwin's better looking; Altman had talent].

    But to SteveM19's comments.

    1. Nobody ever goes to jail or gets shot when the White House changes hands. This is remarkable, and this is largely because we have a consensual system rather than an adversarial system of government. Our national and state representatives do not coalesce into the party of government and the "loyal opposition" -- rather, they look for commonality across party lines. I think you'd be hard pressed to find more than 20 bills in the entire 20th century where full Senate and House votes reflected all Democrats on one side and all Republicans on the other.

    2. 95% of journalism and broadcasting outside of the major networds is advocacy-based. It HAS to be slanted. The blogosphere and the fringe "news" networks are in a hugely competitive environment and so the most extreme views get the most reaction and the most play. For instance, I never have to read what the left-wing loonies say, because Pettyfog always posts them here, and the right-wing blogs and fringe news networks highlight them as well because they get their listeners/readers riled up. If all you do is monitor these sites and networks, you'd think that the nation is a cauldron of extremist division and that civil and cultural war is about to break out. Ain't true.

    3. And these bloggers, fake news networks, and individuals have every right to take their extremist views -- that's the price you pay for being Americans. And these same folks have to know that they're going to be called on it in terms similar to the ones they like to use. This doesn't make us a sick society --just the opposite -- but I do think that the MDA for this stuff, like salsa, gin, and ice cream is relatively small in the universe of the healthy mental diet.

    4. The military plays by different rules, of course. While we're in uniform and on active duty, we [and I claim the right to STILL say "we"] give up the right to publicy criticize national policy and the president. That's because, to people in the military, the President and the Department of Defense is in your chain of command. For good order and discipline, we routinely suppress our opinions in public, and that's fine too. Just remember that the President is only Commander-in-Chief of the ARMED FORCES. To the non-military world, he is our employee, and he is answerable to us. As important it is to choose your words [and where you say them] closely and carefully when you're in the military, it is that important to be free to say what you want as part of the larger society. Dissent, ciriticism, derogatory comments are all just fine. That's only uncomfortable to those who don't quite get the point of being American.

    Ann Coulter is going to try and sell books by insulting the 9/11 widows; I respond by changing channels if she shows up on any show I'm watching. Rush Limbaugh equated the 1992 presidential election with the Iranian revolution and then followed up by calling an awkward, shy 14-year-old "The Presidential Dog." I haven't listened to him since. Similarly, I stopped watching Keith Olbermann because, no matter how entertainingly erudite he may be, he essentially does the same show for as much as two weeks at a time. He bores me. I don't read the left-wing blogs because it bothers me that I get represented by them -- on this site, CONSTANTLY -- and most of them are ill-informed idiots [I think its the nature of bloggers more than their beliefs].

    Why have I gone on this long? Because all of us are free to ignore all the nastiness of election campaigns and just pay attention to the substance. Or we can just see what the candidates say, and discover, as I did several months ago, that there's probably less nastiness in this campaign than there's been in a number of years. You just have to ignore the blatherings of those lunatics on both extremes unless jumping up and down and screaming at your computer/radio/television is how you get your daily cardio.
  11. pettyfog

    pettyfog Well-Known Member

    Jan 4, 2005
    KUDOS, Don... You ARE responding in specifics, finally. as opposed to dropping 'everyone knows...' bites. Never mind a lot of it's not exactly accurate, but it has a logical and provable base.

    And never mind I started this is defense of Hillary and her campaign... and not just to promote 'Operation Chaos'.

    But in the sum, it's all good.
  12. HatterDon

    HatterDon Moderator

    Mar 18, 2006
    Peoples Republic of South Texas
    I was responding to SteveM19's well-founded concerns about the appearance of disunity in the country. I didn't see much to comment about in this thread up until then.

    but thanks for the pat on the head! :oops:
  13. RidgeRider

    RidgeRider Member

    Jan 5, 2008
    Honestly Don I am way too lazy to go back and recount every incident of reputation squashing that Mrs. Clinton and her 'disbarred and impeached' husband were involved in, or had their minions take care of on their behalf. The only thing I can say positive about the Clintons is this; to their credit, they figured out a way to get around the 2 term limit (fortunatley we won't see it happen). They are one the most power driven couples I have ever seen, which can be a virtue I guess, they have stayed married (which I do respect) and Bill Clinton used to have a way with a crowd that was quite captivating however it seems to have lost it's magic now that we all know more about his personal habits.

    I of course would have to support every incident I list with supporting factual references which would then be debated as to their validity and we would both still not agree........ I like you WAY too much to get into it. Their exploits are well Chronicled by people who are far smarter than I.
  14. Clevelandmo

    Clevelandmo Active Member

    Sep 13, 2007
    Not that you really want the help RR but here is a start;

    Paula Jones

    Jennifer Flowers

    Forget the name but a female employee who claims he ruined her life

    Arkansas prostitutes


    All of the other people who were abused to keep the above quiet

    attitudes like this:

    Vince Foster


    Mark Rich
  15. HatterDon

    HatterDon Moderator

    Mar 18, 2006
    Peoples Republic of South Texas
    Hi Mo,

    One by one ...

    Paula Jones, Jennifer Flowers, and Monica Lewinsky had to be dragged screaming AWAY from the limelight. Paula even tried to make it as a female boxer. Monica parlayed her "skills" into some clothing endorsements. Haven't heard a lot about Jennifer Flowers, but I doubt that being the former mistress of a man who became president has hurt her all that much. I mean if that's her ONLY reputation, how could her reputation be destroyed.

    Whitewater was a land development. It didn't have a reputation to destroy or a name to smudge. Oh, and the Clintons lost money on it. Despite that, the "one Clinton scandal a week" Arkansas newspaper made it a cause celebre.

    I'm not sure how you ruin a person by pardoning him, but if that's clear "conservative logic" in the GW Bush era then, yes; Bill Clinton destroyed Mark Rich by giving him a Presidential Pardon. Sure got me there!

    Finally, it's been more than 15 years now that the Clintons personal grief over the suicide of a troubled friend and advisor has been compounded by unfounded murder allegations made by everyone from right-wing bloggers to the late Reverend Jerry Falwell [who distributed a comic book at the 1996 Republican Convention connecting the Clinton family with SEVEN murders]. Yes, Vince Foster was a friend of the Clinton family; yes he committed suicide. Some times people do. And many times, the tradegy of it -- even among government employess -- is noted only as a tragedy. In the Vince Foster case, however, the right wing hate machine has made a career out of implying that the Clintons are at fault. Here's my question for you, kiddo: who has really destroyed the memory and the reputation of Vince Foster? The people who mourn him, or the people who use this tragedy to trash a family they loathe?
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