NCAA Tourn/ Youth Soccer in US

I think it's more a byproduct of tournament/playoff soccer than anything. As Mo said, you see it in the World Cup, you saw it in the NCAA's and it's prevalent in MLS's postseason. The higher the level, the fewer the mistakes, thus it's more likely you'll see a 0-0 draw.

That's probably why it took me discovering the EPL on Fox Soccer to become a full fledged footy fan. I'll support the US and watch the World Cup but it's always one of those things where the buildup far exceeds the actual product (imo). Probably why they wait 4 years to put them on....you need time to forget how crap the last one was.

 

WB. Yeah, I agree on the college sports thing. Heck, I'm not even a big fan of the way high school sports are handled. School should be for education; sports should be an outside school activity. It's probably the single biggest thing preventing us from moving to year-round school (3 semesters, with 2 week breaks inbetween), with graduation at 16 (which would allow us to keep up with the rest of the 1st world).

But yeah, the academy thing is an idea I've been throwing around, while daydreaming about winning the Megamillions lottery

- Build neighborhood based academies in the Baltimore metro, with 3-5k seat stadiums.
- Include education with the GED plan and move toward fielding a professional league by year 3.
- The league would play Fall-Spring (climate can handle it and IMO summer heat&humidity is bad for soccer).
- Once a successful business model is in place, others copy the model in other metro areas.
- Once other states/metros have similar leagues, it allows for cup competitions (imagine a cup like the Europa league, but with league winners from every league of this type in the country).
- Endgame is to become the foundation of the league system in the US, with teams able to get promoted to league at the national level (think Bluesquare league in England).

 

As to the question:
How do you make the youth development system something that is not cost prohibitive:

Here is the simple answer... Make someone other than the kid pay.

Either 'professional' clubs (They are too poor currently - I guess), corporate or personal sponsorships (Like Brad Friedel's academy), or the government (Thru the School Venue... Tweaking the system to create all league and all state teams and tournament opportunities that include combines for the players to be showcased - other sports do this inside of the school system).

Other options include:
REACHING OUT to these kids and use what they are already doing as opposed to fighting against it.

You have touched on a subject that I could go ON and ON and ON about... I will try to keep it to the point.

I laugh when I hear of a club or college coach crying about how they dont have creative players or out and out goal scorers.

The system is not built to develop these players... I have said this a hundred times, but I see so many of the club coaches driving around with Arsenal stickers on their car or sporting Arsenal gear. I hate Arsenal, but they have this reputation of having a "beautiful" style, and I will admit that there are times that they play a very attractive and flowing style that shows real creativity and player movement-switching, etc... But they can also be totally undone by a team like Stoke: Large, Powerful, Aggressive, Pressing, Direct.

These coaches may be wearing an Arsenal beanie, but they are training the players to be Stoke. It is a simpler system and is successful without requiring any creative players. In addition - the whole point of the club system seems to be getting kids college scholarships, and what kind of players do you think get recruited? Large, Powerful, Aggressive, Direct players.

The reality is that they are not interested in seeking out talent and allowing creativity and discovery... Not because they are actively trying to keep someone out, but because they already have enough players to fill the roster, and the coach has a short term mentality - once again - not intentionally, but due to circumstance.

A while ago I went out and got my refereeing badges so that I could get a closer look at the club system. All good people and I enjoy being out there, but it is - on the whole - very uninspiring. Yawn...

Before I move on to the other side of the coin, I would like to say one more thing... This is a generalization, but I have found that the club coach falls into one of 3 categories:

1. A parent or volunteer who knows very little and is concerned with their own child and their friends. All good intentions, but the blinders are on.
2. A former player, who may or may not have some exotic accent, who enjoys the sound of their own voice and the adoration of the soccer moms - some appear to know the game and some dont. Either way - the system is very structured and the teams are usually successful and the parents crazy. THEY dont go find players! Players come to THEM! I mean - didnt you hear that guys accent?
3. Some combination of the two.

Ignore my generalization - it is half kidding - but the idea is that long term player development is not the goal - As much as they claim that is the case.
What would they be developing players for? They lose most by the time they are 17 anyway, and they are not attached to some professional club that is looking for players.
Players are not ability grouped, but instead thrown together because they happen to all be the same age.
In addition - players are not signed or committed to a certain club - they come and go (with their checkbook) to greener pasture at the drop of a hat. The focus is not development...



OK - the flip side of the coin:

As someone who spends 95% of my soccer time with hispanics I can provide you with some insights.

In Mexican league - often - teams represent communities or families. If you are good enough - you are old enough. I push my quality players into the city league at 14 and they play with men (Including me). The men help them, coach them, direct them, and generally accelerate their learning and it is full of their friends, dads, uncles, cousins - with their moms, grandmas, sisters, and whatever having a BBQ and party before, after, or both!

Why in the hell would a kid want to leave that situation to play for some club that has no connection to anything and that requires that they have to pay, travel, and play in front of - nobody basically - for a coach that wants to tell them everything they do wrong and need to change in an effort to destroy their tendency to go off script.

Like I said - it makes me chuckle to hear folks complain or wonder where the creative player and out and out goal scorers are.

You killed or ignored them you morons.

That being said - not all the hispanic leagues are good, and not all the teams have any quality and it is about getting drunk and stumbling around, or getting in fights. That is the exception and not the rule, but it is out there so it gets a bad rep. Often the referees are terrible, but that is the case everywhere.

 

I see changes on the distant horizon, but pertaining to our current situation-

I like the school model because it is the only that is free to the player, clubs are attached to something REAL, is talent based, and offers - actually requires - coaching and continued coaching education that is funded by the government and local citizens.

There are a lot of drawbacks as well, but I dont see a currently available option (or one that will come up in the next 15 years) that offers these benefits.

It is the one place where I can see organized, competitive soccer that isnt primarily about money. Its about representing your school and community. Getting to walk the halls in your jersey on game days, coming up against your cross town rivals, having alumni players come back to practice and cheer you on at your matches, getting recognition and pats on the back in your community for a victory or a fantastic goal, playing with the guys you went to kindergarten with.

HS sports are never going away and USSoccer can try to ignore it and make efforts to consolidate their control by creating whatever league they want, but in the end - HS soccer is going to play an ever increasing role in the system in this country because it is too established and the tradition from football and basketball are too strong.

 

All interesting. The common theme among these ideas is $$$, or lack thereof.

With the exception of the GED offerings, much of the structure Andy described is already in place. U.S. Soccer sponsors a league of Development Academies:
http://www.ussoccer.com/Teams/Developme ... rview.aspx
Here's another link with teams and schedules:
http://academy.demosphere.com/Schedules/index_E.html

Its all probably old news to most of you. When they created it 3 or 4 years ago they had some corporate money (Red Bull, I think, was the sponsor). Today, none. Most of the MLS teams are represented. I wonder if they offer anything except their names and the use of their facilities? Do they provide coaching? Any travel subsidies?

As a previous poster said, the trick is to have someone footing the bill besides the players' families. But who would that be?

 

Jensers. HS Soccer doesn't play a big role in soccer NOW. Colleges typically recruit from travel club teams, not High Schools. Yeah, the high school gets "credit", even if the kid never suited up for the school, but you'll see more college scouts at the regional travel tournaments than you ever will at a high school game. Here in MD, they even stopped bothering taking travel season off for HS soccer and "encourage" their players NOT to play for their HS. Those who do do it for the girls/attention, not because it holds a candle to their travel team.

 

Yes - I know this.

That is why I am saying you will see an ever increasing move toward HS soccer.

The current, Pay to Play system is not working and it will continue to not work. As the sport grows and popularity continues to the point of it being mainstream it will follow other mainstream sports like Football and Basketball.

 

I disagree, Jensers. Just a couple of observations...
At the high school where I work, the students who were the top swimmers of the past couple years never swam for our team. Too busy with their club and their private coaches. Now, one is on a swimming scholarship at Stanford, the other at Texas. They didn't NEED to swim for their high school in order to get noticed by colleges, and HS swimming would cut into their "serious" competitive swimming, so they skipped it.

Same holds true for soccer. College soccer coaches and pro scouts do not scout high school games...they scout the top club tournaments and showcases.

I hear that one of the academies in the Chicago area already goes year-round, and makes their players choose between playing for the academy, or playing for their high school. I'm sure there are others in other parts of the country as well. If these teams do well and win national titles and tournaments, others will follow suit to keep up.

High school soccer won't go away, but it will be irrelevant to the top young players. There will still be HS teams, and the athletes will enjoy it and have great experiences. But it won't be part of the equation of developing American soccer talent.

 

Jensers. Soccer won't follow Football and Basketball. In those sports, you don't have the number of viable career options as an 18 year old star as you do in soccer. College is becoming less and less part of the "pro soccer path"; from a professional club's perspective, those are four of the most important years in player development and they're being "wasted" in college.

 

My guess is that when/if soccer goes mainstream, the pipeline for young players will look more like hockey. ie, a minor league farm system funded by the major league teams. Playing for a school won't matter...the top talent will play for competive clubs, and then sign with minor league teams at age 16 or 17.

 

Time will tell - It is a matter of perspective.

Soccer has never been a big time mainstream sport in HS so to claim it already had its shot is kind of silly... but soccer's popularity at the HS level and in the country is growing. As it changes I think you will see it follow the path of other TEAM sports like football and basketball.

True - in individual sports you do not see a focus at the HS level - swimming, track and cross country (to a certain degree), diving, tennis, golf. This also holds true to a certain degree for pitchers.

Baseball - there is another sport that is going thru an identity crisis... America's pastime? Last time I went to a Mariners game I didnt see many Americans on the field.

If you think college coaches are going to ignore the place where kids can play for free when the sport starts pulling athletes in from communities of economic hardship - that doesnt make sense.

We start getting more kids playing who dont have money, but have serious talent you will see a move to HS where it is subsidized.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Where do you think the money is going to come from if not tax payers? MLS is 15-20 years at least away from being able to have residency style academies that they foot the bill for.

Corporate sponsorships are not going to take care of it.

Upper middle class kids are not the only ones with talent - so where can you see talented kids playing the game who may not have the money to fit into the $ driven club system?

HIGH SCHOOL.

 

Just for the record...

I agree with you - but I dont see this happening soon... Like not in the next 15-20 years, but in the end - this must be the model and there must be a scouting system to get out and see everyone.

Right now - there are no scouts looking at any kid that doesnt have the money to be seen. A US version of Rooney? Not seen. Beckham? Not seen.

 

Oh, I understand it. Perhaps when soccer is mainstream and has the money to devote to scouting that baseball has, that will be the case. The problem for a recruiter/scout is that the talent pool is so diluted in high school sports. It is hard for a scout to justify coming to a particular town for a game to see one or two players that might interest him. That's hell on a travel budget. But spend a weekend at a national club showcase and your guaranteed to see dozens of top-notch players.

Is it fair to the kids who can't afford club fees? No. It is not. Jensers, I described the system I predict WILL happen...not the system that SHOULD happen. But put yourself in the scout's shoes. If your budget is limited, better to go to a club showcase than to chase individual HS players around.

The "superstar" athletes are still going to get discovered, regardless of whether they are rich or poor. So we'll have the occasional Rooney story. But the "pretty-good-and-has-potential" players won't be discovered unless their family is rich enough to afford club fees. The poor kids in that category will slip through the cracks. Life isn't fair.

 

For sure - life isnt fair.

All about $. In football and basketball they have learned that it is worth the scouting fees to find a player that is going to bring them big big money.

100k investment in a recruiter for a multi-million dollar return? No brainer.

As of now - that is not the case in America for soccer. It is that way elsewhere tho... And call me optimistic, but I think we will get there in the good ol' USA as well.

 

I can't see soccer ever being on par with baseball, football or basketball in terms of attendance, TV ratings and/or dollars.

Maybe pro soccer in the USA will reach NHL hockey-status in a generation or so. There are some parallels...a "foreign" sport with a limited but passionate following...a very fragmented regional appeal, ie, wildly successful in some regions, a failure in others.

To have pro soccer reach a level comparable to pro hockey in this country...that's the best I dare hope for. Call me a pessimist, I guess.

 

Jensers. By the time teams can invest in sufficient scouts to review talent at the high schools, they will have the money to fund the academies. Besides, a kid "with potential" on a high school team is still a lesser talent than a good, well coached kid on a travel team, even if the former has higher potential. When clubs have the money to really go after talent, it's going to be before they get into high school; high school is too late, in soccer terms.

Short term or long term, there is no upside to high school soccer. It's not good enough to continue the development of good talent and is at too late an age to be a talent finding function. The Academies will want talented 12 year olds that they can mold into professionals, not talented 16 year olds.

 

You might be right, Andy, but as a parent of 3 soccer-playing boys I would push back. None of my sons have pro soccer potential (but don't tell my 13-year-old...he's convinced he'll be starring for Barcelona in 10 years). But even if they did, I would not want my sons to devote so much time and energy to soccer at age 12. Its just too young. Let them be kids. Let them experience the changing of the seasons...ie, soccer to basketball to spring soccer to baseball. Let them be in Scouts and go camping and ride bikes through the neighborhood with their buddies.

I fear the level of commitment that a professionally-sponsored academy would require would be more than I would be willing to put my sons through at age 12 or 13. Maybe at 16.

 

I understand what you are saying JP, but I don't think it is a bad thing to provide the opportunity of Academy Training to those Players (and Parents) who want to make the committment to soccer at age 8 even. If that is what they enjoy most and want to be a part of, I'd say that is a good indicator that they will be willing to make the committment as they grow older. And maybe, just MAYBE, that Player might be able to take advantage of some opportunities (whether college, semi-pro, pro or even national team play) that they otherwise would not be able to do if they spread themselves all over the place experimenting with different interests. It's an investment in many ways for sure, and I think providing the opportunity to make that investment is not a bad thing.

That said, at least with our Soccer Academie INTER98, we do not push anyone into being a part of it. We are very clear that the focus is on Training each individual Player to be better soccer players in a team environment that will compete against regional competition every so often. Our #1 priority is not traveling, but making each Player better. We can teach and they can learn more in 2 hours of Training than they will in roughly 30-45 minutes in a Match. Although, playing in that competition is important as well.

So in summary, it's not for everyone, and there are financial limitations (although we very thankfully have someone who will provide a season's scholarship this season, and we have yet to have anyone take him up on it), but I think Academies have their place, and just as their focus at a young age may not be for everyone, they may too be of service to those ready (or who think they are ready) to make the committment.

 

Couple of problems here:

1. The assumption that a kid on a club travel team is better than a kid with 'potential' - poppycock. You seem to think that the little robots being produced by club soccer are better that the creativity and 1v1 skills they can pick up by playing MORE OFTEN in an unstructured environment?

2. Talent is not something that comes from training or a coach. You cant coach talent any more than you can foot speed. You can improve it, but it is something a player either has or not. We are limiting the amount of talent in the system because of the PAY TO PLAY system.

3. There is a simple solution to the 16 year old comment. Middle School. Our boys enter the program at 12, and join the mens leagues for Futsal (3 month season) and outdoor (7 month season) at 14 - earlier if they are good enough. Before that they play in the youth system and I try to provide coaches from Alumni and coaching education.

4. You are giving me the feeling that these academies are already up and running, or will be in a widespread free to player format in the near future. That is not the case, and I dont see this happening on a large scale for another 15 years at least.

My question is - what is your solution? It is fine and dandy if you want to stick your nose up at HS soccer, but you had better have something better to offer of besides a fantasy of something that nobody is going to pay for.

I dont know what the solution is in a large community, but for me in the small community I am in - I have sorted out that you build partnerships - not competition with entities that are already in place. Unite the soccer community by bringing everyone together under one umbrella. Ignore those that are looking for a payday, and give kids opportunities to play the game every day in an unstructured way to allow them to develop so that when you add some pattern they have the vision to do something beautiful by going off script. Above all - the program has to be connected to something the community cares about. For us - it is easy to do that with the HS and build a club around that.

The way we have it set up is almost like the academies we hope to have some day... The kids are educated, they play nearly year round, it is free, it is attached to something the community cares about, and it builds a culture, a family, and a safe place to belong for kids who are 90% of the time considered to be at risk and living in poverty.

Not all the kids are going to play in college, but we have sent more players on to that level in the time we put this 'club' in place than in the prior history of the program combined.

HS can and should work as a part of the system for producing players in this country because it is an opportunity for talent to be proven when it has had the door slammed in its face from the pay to play BS.

Currently - it is the only nation wide option for children without means to play competitive soccer beyond their mid-teens.

 

For the record, I think club and school teams can and should work together as well. But, the Players who play BOTH will have an advantage. How that is paid for, will be the issue that needs to be sorted.

INTER98's U-12 kids are the best in the county, without a doubt. A big part of the reason is because they have been Training almost year-round for over a year (we founded this last year). This is going to give them significant advantages for Middle and High School Soccer, and they will be the starters. A couple of my concerns are, will they suffer as the other Players in Middle and High School try to catch up? Short Answer: Yes. And will they find enough competition on the school arena? I'd say probably yes,as well.

But Jensers, I think you are mistaken if you think someone who has not been Training as focused as Academy kids have been, will be as good. A child is not born with touch, with vision, or with a feel for the flow of the game. Those are things that are acquired only through experience. And like it or not, the Academy and Club kids are going to have that better than the others, at least to begin with, and having that in a Players arsenal is going to provide them the initial advantage that they can maintain for some time, if they stick with it.

So, I don't think the question is whether Academy/Club Soccer is beneficial. The question is, how do we get it paid for and available for more?