Kartina, What is really going on?!

Discussion in 'Miscellaneous' started by americanmike, Sep 5, 2005.

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  1. americanmike

    americanmike Administrator

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    OK 'fog. Lets have a go.

    From the official board:

     
    #1
    americanmike, Sep 5, 2005
  2. pettyfog

    pettyfog Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2005
    distorted, eh!

    Like I said on the offal.. wait and see is best.

    Only sure thing:

    FEMA head must go... if for no other reason than his idiotic comments.

    Imagine the howling from the Dems, however, if FEMA had rushed right in , Federalized the Guard.. and took over everything.

    They would STILL have mucked it up...THAT is WHY the overall direction of RESCUE efforts is SUPPOSED to come from locals.
     
    #2
    pettyfog, Sep 5, 2005
  3. dcheather

    dcheather Administrator

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    I'll have a go. Number one, this is a complex situation, and I am not sure what answers you are looking for Mike. Are you looking to for answers to explain why people were stranded or why tourists were subjected to racial abuse? If it's the former, we are still hearing a lot of accusations flying about and will probably not have it all sorted out for weeks...in short, if you're in a jam...you better get yourself sorted as much as possible and not rely on your government to do it all. As for the racial abuse, like I said this is complex and which many Europeans and especially the Brits (also many Americans) like to speculate about whats going on and have to rely on outside information to draw their conclusions. There are many minorities who unfortunately who are poor and remain wo despite centuries of progress because they live in cities that have a poor resources and school systems (because they are funded by taxes, unfortunately corrupt offficals (and I hear NO is not short of them) don't use that money for their purposes they are supposed to used for...see Baltimore for this perfect example, I'll try to find links if you want them) Plus, you're not going to raise that much revenue from a city whose citizens are below the poverty line. What I am trying to say is that without a decent education you get into a situation of continuing poverty. I remember in my Economics class one of my instructors saying that if you want to improve the economy and wealth of your citizens you better invest heavily into education. And the commentor is correct most of these people are law-abiding citizens who live paycheck to paycheck and are most likely some of the nicest people you want to meet. However, working with a counselor that advised children and teenagers in poor cities, she and I observed there are quite a few poor minorities (and poor white people) that believe in the most ridiculous conspiracy theories. It's actually quite common all over the world in poor communities...that some how the gov't wants to keep them poor, introduced drug pushers in their neighborhood, and the CIA killed Tupac--but then you others say that he's in a witness protection program and still releasing records and profitting from them. It's a strange phenomenon, that I guess people resort to to explain failures in their lives. (I guess Red Sox fans can relate by inventing a curse to explain their team not winning.) Anyway, I've gotten a bit off-topic, but in a sense the people that hurl the racial abuse are mostly uneducated and extremely angry with their situation and lives, and blame the vast majotrity of their problems on others (in this case white people).
     
    #3
    dcheather, Sep 5, 2005
  4. americanmike

    americanmike Administrator

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    I wasn't looking for any answers to be honest, I simply wanted to take that conversation from the official board (where it doesn't belong) and on to a more proper place...a politics forum.

    I simply can't understand why people rely so heavily on the media when they know that the media is out to spin all news in order to get people to watch thus raising revenue.

    I do not think our country has abandoned (or let people rot) just because they are black. Many things contributed to this horrible catastrophe and one thing that stands out was the fact that this was a very very poor area. Many of them are around $15,000 below the average income level and since it was a city and many used public transportation, very few had cars and were not able to flee the city in time. Not like they could've paid to leave since they are poor.

    I find it to be to be a simple minded excuse when someone says this is a 'race issue'.
     
    #4
    americanmike, Sep 5, 2005
  5. americanmike

    americanmike Administrator

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    Re: RE: Kartina, What is really going on?!

    Sorry, Heather, that sounded a bit brash which wasn't the intention! :D
     
    #5
    americanmike, Sep 5, 2005
  6. dcheather

    dcheather Administrator

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    RE: Re: RE: Kartina, What is really going on?!

    I didn't think you sounded harsh at all. No worries. :D
     
    #6
    dcheather, Sep 5, 2005
  7. Anthony

    Anthony New Member

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    RE: Re: RE: Kartina, What is really going on?!

    AM
    I have gathered my information from Enlish text websites form around the world
    America, Australia, Canada and the UK. I noted that many American reports and blogs suggested The American Tv reports were the least accurate and that you had to rely on the European press for accurate reports not spun to suit Bush.
    On many of these sites they said that The French ( mainly White ) area was evacuated straight away and the areas where the poor blacks are situated have waited for relief for days and that manpower was being used to protect property rather than give relief.
    Personally I think that it may not be race that dictated help received more likely wealth.
    The world is watching this and all agree that the relief effort of America is an utter shambles, the bickering between the Feds and the local authorities just makes it worse aswell.
     
    #7
    Anthony, Sep 5, 2005
  8. americanmike

    americanmike Administrator

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    Re: RE: Re: RE: Kartina, What is really going on?!

    I believe it does come down to wealth and not so much race, but race is an easier excuse for those who want to blame 'America' or even better, 'white america'.

    The city was told that there would be a mandatory evecuation, but many of the residents don't have cars and could not afford any other means of leaving. And how do you move millions of people from a city in only a matter of a day and a half. As for helping out post hurricane, as noted in a separate thread by our very own DCHeather, it takes days and days to get the food, water and other logistics together before we can send in troops.

    It was a bad situation that was much worse than everyone expected. Of course most will jump to conclusions saying it is another oppression of the black Americans in the south. I say, lets save as many people as possible and after the 'dust settles', re-evaluate 'what went wrong'.
     
    #8
    americanmike, Sep 5, 2005
  9. dcheather

    dcheather Administrator

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    RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Kartina, What is really going on?!

    Bush spun media? Um...I don't think CNN, MSNBC, NYTimes, Washingtonpost, and other media are Bush spun...just read the editorials. About the only "Bush spun" media you will find is Foxnews. Why are you relying on the internet for information? All that is is anecdotal evidence based on people's opinions. As Mike pointed out there I made a post pointing out the extreme logistical complications that rescuers had to deal with. That's just the tip of the iceberg, there are also long standing tradtions and laws in this country that come into play in this catastrophe. As you might be aware of the US is a federal republic, most US citizens basic infrastructure is carried out by local and state governments. The U.S. military cannot enter any American private, city, or state property and enforce state laws. The only military that can act in a law enforcement capacity is the Coast Guard (fed'l gov't) and National Guard. The National Guard is controlled by state governments, thus can enforce state law. (but can be called into action by the President--this is usually in time of war).The only thing the U.S. military can do is act in assistance (mostly providing their assests) to the local and state government, National Guard, and Coast Guard--so, when we have violence in a city, we can't send in the 82nd Airborne division to get things under control. The inability to get the violence under control severely hampered rescue operations and humanitarian efforts. Anthony, you mention that the well off were the first ones to evacuate, that is true, but they evacuated themselves after the mayor asked them to do so. You're right that poor and disabled were left behind--this should not have happened in the scale in that it did. The mayor, according to emergency procedures, is allowed to use any public buses (including school buses) to evacuate anyone that does not have the transportation means to do so. Also, in my experience is when a major weather storm (hurricane or snowstorm) is going to occur in area you live in it is the state and local government that makes sure that public shelters have enough food and water to last a week, because that is how long it might be until someone gets to you--if not longer. And if you make the choice to stay behind and ignore the evacuation, you as an individual better make sure you have enough supplies to last a week and have an emergency kit that you can grab quickly. All I can say is that in my opinion, there were major breakdowns in the local, state, and federal governments. I'm still trying to grasp the entire situation...and I feel the entire truth will not come out until weeks later. But to entirely dismiss this as a 'race' or 'wealth' issue is not doing this catastrophe any justice. I'm still waiting to hear if my friends are okay, who are white and are middle class.
     
    #9
    dcheather, Sep 5, 2005
  10. americanmike

    americanmike Administrator

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    Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Kartina, What is really going on?!

    I hope your friends are ok, are they in the coast guard??
     
    #10
    americanmike, Sep 5, 2005
  11. dcheather

    dcheather Administrator

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    RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Kartina, What is really going on

    Yeah, I'm pretty sure they are operating in the rescue missions. But I don't know if their families and homes are alright. I know they have enough knowledge and the means to get out of town, so I'm not too worried. But I would like some reassurance.
     
    #11
    dcheather, Sep 5, 2005
  12. Anthony

    Anthony New Member

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    RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Kartina, What is really going on

    I hope your friends are ok.

    This is a terrible tragedy for your country and I think they should change their rules if it meant help could be given more quickly to all that need it.
    This will probably be the end for Bush but we thought that before the last election.
     
    #12
    Anthony, Sep 5, 2005
  13. americanmike

    americanmike Administrator

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    RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Kartina, What is really going on

    Alot went wrong with both the evacuation effort as well as the rescue efforts that are going on now. It was a worst case scenario that came to be a realization but we won't know who/what went wrong exactly until weeks or even months later. I fear that politics will take over and the wrong people will be shoulding the blame for much of what went on.

    The issues I'm still having is with the violence. People shooting at others who are trying to rescue and then yesterday, some engineers that are trying to help rebuild parts of the city are fired upon...there is no excuse for things like that.
     
    #13
    americanmike, Sep 5, 2005
  14. martin

    martin New Member

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    RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Kartina, What is really going on

    I think a lot of people, especially people outside of the US who are criticizing the disaster response, just don't understand the scope of the disaster. The area directly affected by the hurricane is roughly the same size as the ENTIRE UK. That's not even counting inland areas that saw localized flooding as the storm remnants moved further north into the US. A couple people were even killed here in Atlanta, almost 500 miles from New Orleans, by tornadoes that were spawned by Katrina.

    This was just a massive, massive storm that not only destroyed property and infrastructure and killed countless people, it also temporarily paralyzed our ability to respond. Power was out; communication was out; roads were not just flooded, they were gone. I am sure there are aspects of the response that could have been handled better, and it will be months, if not years, before that is all sorted out. But for people to be pointing fingers and politicizing the issue while storm victims are still dying in their homes is just obscene.

    I agree with Mike that the most troubling issue is the violence. New Orleans is a poor city and many parts of it are dangerous, even on a normal day. This isn't news to anybody who has been there or who pays attention to social issues. But the complete collapse of society in such a short time is hard to believe. How can somebody be so desperate or amoral that shooting at rescue crews seems like a reasonable thing to do? How bad can their lives be that they have such disregard for life or so little concern about their own futures? The physical rebuilding of New Orleans needs to be accompanied by some serious soul searching to figure out how to improve the lives of the urban poor to prevent that kind of social meltdown from happening again.
     
    #14
    martin, Sep 5, 2005
  15. pettyfog

    pettyfog Well-Known Member

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    RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Kartina, What is really going on

    And, Anthony.. let's get one thing straight.

    There was absolutely NO manpower devoted to protecting property or businesses. Any protection done was by the owners themselves.
    the police watched looters... not just food stores, which they wouldnt stop, anyway... but TV's and jewelry.

    The only thing police did to even protect themselves was in their own station houses.. plus they stripped pawn shop and gun stores of any ammunition.

    Read this...ALL of it:
    KATRINA: RESPONSE TIMELINE
     
    #15
    pettyfog, Sep 5, 2005
  16. americanmike

    americanmike Administrator

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    Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Kartina, What is really goin

    I must admist 'fog, I consider you a friend and I was more than happy to meet the 'miserable git' that resides in Columbus, Ohio but, you really are the only person I know that could give us all a link to a website called "The Right Wing Nut House". :roll:
     
    #16
    americanmike, Sep 5, 2005
  17. pettyfog

    pettyfog Well-Known Member

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    RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Kartina, What is really

    I know.. but it's the only one with that succinct and well-supported documentation.

    Besides Conservatives are mostly optimistic and have a sense of humor, right?

    Note my handle. It's a 'talent on loan.. from GAWD-uh'!

    - -- - - - - - - -
    If that is truly the case... you should add a little diversity to your social circle!

    Or keep your ears open... WABC radio's ratings come from WHERE? do ya' think
     
    #17
    pettyfog, Sep 5, 2005
  18. JohnnyCash

    JohnnyCash New Member

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    RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Kartina, What is really

    Heather,

    no Coasties have died in action, and basically all should have reported before the Hurricane struck. Check your PMs though.

    Another thing...the looters obviously hampered rescue efforts a lot. I'm wondering if they also don't affect the charity of this country. Obviously the majority of the victims stuck in the city were elderly, young or extremely poor and most in need. This is an extremely generous country, but I'm wondering if some pocketbooks closed up when they saw the news presenting the worst side of this story.
     
    #18
    JohnnyCash, Sep 6, 2005
  19. dcheather

    dcheather Administrator

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    RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Kartina, What is really

    Thanks JohnnyCash, I'm really looking for one Coastie in particular, if I know he's alright I know his crew are alright. I don't think people will close their pocketbooks at all. I think they realize that this was a small, 'freakish' group that wasn't representative of everyone in that city. I can't remember the exact number Red Cross donations alone, but what they raised in week is significant. And that's not counting all the other charity donations.
     
    #19
    dcheather, Sep 6, 2005
  20. Anthony

    Anthony New Member

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    RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Kartina, What is really going on

    The Mayor seems to sum up the terrible failure to effect a quick aid response best.
     
    #20
    Anthony, Sep 6, 2005
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