College Soccer

Discussion in 'Prem talk, Those Other Leagues, and International' started by RidgeRider, Dec 15, 2008.

  1. RidgeRider

    RidgeRider Member

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    So, I am watching 'Fox Football Fone In' right now and Steven Cohen basically just said, well 40 minutes ago anyway, that our college system doesn't or can't produce good pros. Says basically by the time they get out of school at 22 or so, they're done.

    Thinking back to how my interest in the game actually started, it was college soccer that started my interest. I used to take my kids to Women's soccer matches at my alma mater, Santa Clara, and I followed the Men and Women's program over the past 20 years. I remember being incredibly impressed with how good these women played. My EPL 'jones' came later. I still follow college but not nearly as closely as EPL.


    What do you all think? Can or does our college system produce good pros?
     
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  2. FFCinPCB

    FFCinPCB New Member

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    If they leave college early enough. See: Onyewu, and many others.
     
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  3. stlouisbrad

    stlouisbrad Well-Known Member

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    College soccer still has a place. The leading scorer in the Budesliga was part of the American college system. I'm not sure if 4 years is the way to go, but its a good stepping stone for some guys.
     
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  4. andypalmer

    andypalmer Active Member

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    Compared to being part of a top academy at age 16, NCAA soccer is a distant second, at best. With the absence of anything resembling a top academy in the county, its the best we have.
     
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  5. Jensers

    Jensers New Member

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    Difficult to take that path and be a 'top' professional. Is it a path for being pro? Yes. Top Pro? No.
     
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  6. HatterDon

    HatterDon Moderator

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    I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of British soccer players who graduated from university. The same is true of top-flight Americans. This is also true in baseball, golf, and tennis. Generally, all the good tennis players are gone by their sophomore year, and baseball players by their junior year. In the case of baseball, if they stay for their senior year, they have no contract leverage.

    Except in pointy football, there is no benefit to be accrued from staying for 4 or 5 [in case of redshirt] years. There is, however, a tremendous benefit to be accrued for a REAL student who is also a pretty good baseball player/golfer/tennis player/soccer player.

    Several years ago, a distant cousin of mine played catcher on a very good LSU team. He got injured in his junior season and kept out of the draft. He came back to school for his senior year and played brilliant defense, hit for average and power, and was selected tournament MVP in Omaha as the Bengals won the NCAA championship.

    He went from that honor to not being drafted -- a power-hitting catcher. At least in the minds of those folks involved in player development and investment, staying for all four years means you're not good enough.
     
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  7. BarryP

    BarryP New Member

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    Going the college route to become a professional at any sport will ultimately work out for some but for those with real talent it is probably not the way to become a "top professional". For instance, I think Jozy has a much better chance of developing as a player in Spain than he would by playing in the NCAA.
     
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  8. FFCinPCB

    FFCinPCB New Member

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    #8
  9. BarryP

    BarryP New Member

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    As much as I agree with the article what other choices in the US do young players have other than college? The MLS just axed its development league. The USL may be a choice but I am not sure it generates many more professional prospects than the NCAA. I hate saying this but due to the huge gap between the MLS and club soccer in the US the answer for those that can make it is to begin training overseas as soon as possible. Perhaps the MLS will eventually develop true academies but until they or someone else does there is a big developmental hole in US soccer.
     
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  10. pettyfog

    pettyfog Well-Known Member

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    And so do I.

    I do quibble with the concept that players picked in the college draft should be of starting quality*, seems to me making the game roster is more to the point. But the writer's point is that these players are already of age where they would be well established in Europe.

    *Actually NONE of the last were.. as the only example given was playing for the Galaxy.

    Added: Ten years ago the concensus among most US fans was that the college system was dead or dying as a source of top class players. That hasnt worked out, but I think the actual fault lies in the development of HS>college prospects.
    USSF had to battle arcane state assoc HS player rules in the eighties to get players the time and space to develop outside the schoolboy system but it was a compromise. They got 2/3 of what was needed for full development.
     
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  11. andypalmer

    andypalmer Active Member

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    Part of the problem, too, is that NCAA doesn't follow FIFA regulations for their games. Unlimited substitutions breeds a different mindset and style of play than "real" football.
     
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  12. RidgeRider

    RidgeRider Member

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    Going back to Don's comment, one of my best buddies over the years, was never drafted, stayed all 4 years and held the RBI, HR, an AVG. in a single season at a mid-sized college here in CA for many years afterward.

    Andy, I like your suggestion, it would change the style to be more like professional which clearly better prepare them.

    Pointy football works so well with the college system. Seems like you could make the college system work with some changes.
     
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  13. HatterDon

    HatterDon Moderator

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    I'm really enjoying the inputs from all contributors on this question.

    I'm thinking that pointy football really IS the exception in the USA, because of [a] the strength and power that most linemen need that can't be developed in your teens and the lack of any minor league system.

    The NCAA IS the NFL's minor league, and their main duty is to develop professional players. This is manifestly NOT the case in soccer, and probably won't be. Going back to BarryP's comment about Jozy, I think we're all agreed that training and playing with Robert Pires is an experience that no American striker could ever get in the NCAA.
     
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  14. Jensers

    Jensers New Member

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    I am not saying I am an authority, but as someone who works with middle, high school, and college age players...

    Creative play is not encouraged, Little players are overlooked, Minorities (Unless plucked out of their own country) are (mostly) ignored. A player that wants to go to goal is told to pass, a player who has a big boot is preferred over one who can create from the back. Players are conditioned to find passing 'patterns' and not trained on decision making and vision. Defenders are not encouraged to join the attack.

    Now - I am not saying that all of these things are bad... Often you need to pass, often you need to boot it away, often size and strength is necessary, often a pattern gives the players a feeling that they can look for in a match...

    But all of that is predictable, and none of it will work without a spark - something unpredictable.

    So where are players going to get that spark? Obviously they need to play - unrestricted. Obviously they need to watch professionals play. Obviously they need to spend a lot of time - 1 on 1 time - with the ball. Obviously coaches need to make a real effort to encourage players to take some risks - to go to goal if you only have 1 to beat, sometimes even when you have 2 or 3 to beat!

    I dont know that the training sessions would change much if the players were doing this kind of stuff, but to me - this is where the creativity originates.

    If I may - use myself as an example:

    Before College - I never saw a professional match in person, and I watched VERY FEW on TV (Maybe a random world cup match). I RARELY touched a ball when by myself (??.. hehehehe), and I almost never played small sided pick up games that were not organized by an adult. Most of the upper middle class kids I played with in High School and club were in the same situation.

    I played Fall, Winter Indoor, and Spring. (Winter Indoor was the closest thing we had to complete creative freedom and expression BTW)

    While playing in College - I started playing small sided pick up games. I finally learned the basics of seeing the field, making it small, and seeing numbers up/numbers down - by feel. I started recognizing the play that I was not 'looking' at. I started to understand balance, rotation, and coverage of space, but most of this was from a Defensive perspective - meaning - We didnt really understand how to create space and exploit space for attacking - only the taking away and management of space. (This is important to note).

    During this time, I watched a few more matches on TV, but did not follow a club, know many players, or draw any lessons to be applied to my own style.

    Once again - a typical representation of those that I played with in college - OTHER than the international players. They woke up at 4am to watch EPL, World Cup, and Italian matches while we stayed snoozing peacefully. They read 4-4-2 and searched the internet for info. They had club jerseys and posters on their wall. For many of them, a ball was a personal accessory.

    So the point:

    I was your average American middle class kid, and I believe that the example is still relevant.

    We are playing the game in amazing numbers, but the culture of the game has yet to reach young average Americans in a way that is going to accelerate their development to match the needs of the professional game internationally.

    They need to live, breathe, sleep football. And not the kind of football that is (generally) manufactured by the current youth system - unless you are interested in having a kid who is going to 'grind out results' for the rest of their life against weaker opponents, but get their butt handed to them when they face someone of greater awareness.


    Now - fast forward. I am 31 years old and this game occupies my life. My couch time, my day-dreaming time, my work time, my leisure time, my parenting time. But guess what? Its too late for me - I am too old!

    At some point the culture of the game got to me. Maybe it was the international players I lived with that planted the seed. Maybe it was the fact that I realized my highest level playing days were over. Maybe it was the fact that I was coaching and I realized I didnt know that much.

    Whatever it was - I have this sinking feeling that I was never close to matching my athletic ability to my performance because I simply didnt know enough... But what can I do about it now?

    Well - I coach, and I encourage. I do what I can to get my players and my own kids immersed into the culture.

    Oh yeah - and I play - hoping that the knowledge I have gained will give me the '5 yards in my head' so I can keep dreaming that I might have a little glory left.
     
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  15. RidgeRider

    RidgeRider Member

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    Rockin' post dude!!!
     
    #15
  16. BarryP

    BarryP New Member

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    #16
  17. EricD

    EricD New Member

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    Nice post Jensers. There seems to be some similarities to when I was growing up. I got the best training I could ever possibly get when I was at soccer camp. Granted, the camp worked on the fundamentals, but I was one of the very few kids that got to play in the short sided adult staff game after the training sessions. The staff was made up of Europeans, Central and South Americans, and that was the best learning experience of my life. I remember the mistakes I made and being yelled at for them. I do not make those mistakes any longer, and I coach my players on some of those same things with short sided games in training sessions. Playing with those guys significantly developed my love for the game as well as my playing style. I will gladly play a short sided game anyday of the week.

    The kids today are lucky that they have access to so much media coverage, traning tools and more coaches. 30 years ago, we barely caught games on tv, and my brothers made fun of soccer. Now, I too am consumed with the game. It drives my wife nuts. But at 42, I can only play for fun and teach others what I know. I still rewind certain plays some guys make and try and replicate it in the living room. There are always soccer balls in the house ideally for my sons to kick and me to mess around.

    With regards to the college game, I think it is lacking. It seems to be a further bastardization of the game that really starts in high school. The club teams are providing some nice development in possession, moving without the ball, etc, but then the high school style gets into this physical, fast paced, knock it forward game that progresses into college (this seems to support the idea that the smaller kids and possession players are not coveted as much).

    Did anyone see how North Carolina's style in the NCAA final deteriorated into a kick ball match? I was depressed because it supports the idea that we are not developing quality players or style in the college game.
     
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  18. Jensers

    Jensers New Member

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    I coach HS, and I can agree that it contributes to ugly soccer. There are some GREAT coaches at the HS level, but there are also a good number that are terrible.

    But I would be careful in assuming that club teams are all that much better.

    I often think the play at that level is worse. Worse because - are the kids better drilled? Yes. Are they better organized? Yes. Are the players often more skilled? Yes.

    Is the play better? No.

    It is boring, predictable, safe, grinding, and stifled.

    If you read articles that include interviews of kids who play both, the vast majority describe HS soccer as their 'Fun' soccer... that they love the parents and students who come to watch, that they dont feel the pressure, and that they have more creative freedom.

    The funny thing is that much of that freedom has to do with coaches who dont know anything. They are not getting in the kids way all the time!

    Also - in HS, you play A LOT!

    We dont train for 2 months for a weekend tournament. We play 2-3 days a week. There is very little training that can happen in that kind of schedule... That is also a contributor to some of the guerrilla tactics you see in HS soccer.

    Plus you have to sort out how to hide kids that are no good, and what to do with injuries (That will happen playing that many matches).

    HS soccer is as challenging a coaching situation as I have been involved with.
     
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  19. EricD

    EricD New Member

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    OK, granted I was making some generalizations, so I cannot disagree with you. I am glad you are here to point out some great insight into the HS game especially being an insider. I am on the outside looking in, and I think my references to the club thing was probably more related to back when I was a kid. There were way fewer clubs, so it seemed like the quality of play was much better. I think the club situation has gotten out of control now too because the dollars are much greater, and the recruiting is expanding all the time. Therefore, there is going to be a lot of questionable stuff going on. Something I have observed in my area was that a new club came along and poached a lot of kids out of AYSO who probably should have stayed in AYSO. It turned ou that the club was getting beat week in and week out, and the level at AYSO dropped. There is a status thing going on as well, so that does not help.

    One more thing that I remember about the HS game is that the physical play escalates because of the rivalries. The school spirit, history, etc... Also, I remember playing against other local high schools, and playing against club teammates seemed to always get heated. It is sort of the nature of that competition.
     
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  20. FFCinPCB

    FFCinPCB New Member

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    Great stuff. Bump, so we don't lose it because it is in the wrong category.
     
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