Birth of the Three Party System

Discussion in 'Miscellaneous' started by pettyfog, Aug 9, 2006.

  1. pettyfog

    pettyfog Well-Known Member

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    Began last night

    With the narrow defeat of Lieberman and the trouncing of Cynthia McKinney, we're finally going/beginning to see what should have been done in the early seventies, when McGovern won the Democratic nomination.

    While Lieberman's probably going to keep his seat with a win as an Independent, the writing is on the wall.

    The political climate's been reflecting this for a long time and the parties' elected Reps have been chafing under the restrictions placed on their actions and votes, merely to maintain the largest segments of their voting bases.

    The true alignments are:

    Social Democrat* - Liberal Democrats - Conservative

    *ie Socialist - they just pretend to like democracy

    This is going to also make it tough for some of the Dem's but fewer Republicans.

    Typical Reps:
    S. D.: Probably Ted Kennedy, likely Kerry, Maxine Waters, Barbara Boxer, Nancy Pelosi, Howard Dean (current DNC Chair), Jimmy Carter

    L. D.: The Clintons, John McCain, Joe Biden {probable}, Geo Voinovich, Diane Feinstein, Richie Daley, Barack Obama, Harold Ford, Terry McAuliffe (former DNC), Lieberman

    Conservative: There will be many Republicans choosing to drop out rather than go conservative because of the fringe base.. which formerly could be handled the same way the Dems did the black vote, Campaign then ignore.
    - But this will also allow the Conservatives to tell the RWF to keep quiet or lose everything.

    This is a good thing... it will actually ALLOW some things to get done instead of constant wrangling and blockage.

    Of course election law has to be rewritten and votes are going to cost a heckuva lot more.
     
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  2. HatterDon

    HatterDon Moderator

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    You're really smoking some high-grade stuff there, Fog, but you're entertaining with it.
     
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  3. pettyfog

    pettyfog Well-Known Member

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    I dont think I am., Don... look back at voter Party affiliation over the last 40 years.
    With the rise of McGovernism as well as the kook fringe left {not the same thing, though he served as their totem}, Dem Ident has been steadily shrinking.

    This development seals the deal... you notice that all the Dems are rushing to endorse Lamont.

    Well what are they going to do when Lieberman beats his ass in the Election?

    Call him a Republican? Call him a DINO?

    The voters arent stupid. Well, ALL of them arent and there IS such a thing as cognitive reaction.. where the individual might not exactly know the issues' fine points but he knows what stinks.

    Now you are going to see some REAL garbage being thrown at Joe L. And he's already getting lots of phone calls asking him to step back in the name of party unity just after they kicked him in the nuts, for no good reason other than to keep the moonbats off their cases.

    Which is why I said what I did about the 3 party... the mainstream Dems are now stuck between a rock and a hard place, realizing {privately, of course} that they sold their souls to Bush Derangement Syndrome and they're either going to have to keep with it or recant their positions.
     
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  4. HatterDon

    HatterDon Moderator

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    Fog, you're a cool dude, but I think you're delusional. Two Democratic primary results do not a three-party system make. The best bet in CT is that the Republicans win the senate seat because Lieberman splits the Democratic vote. That's why the Party and their propaganda machine [Fox News] has been pushing Lieberman so hard in the first place.

    Let's take a look at your definitions: Social Democrats are "socialists who only pretend to like democracy." That, like your use of the word "moonbat," indicates that you spend too much time reading extremist blogs and listening to talk radio. In that rarified air, intelligent discourse and respect for others' opinions are in short supply. It's alright not to like Barbara Boxer, Howard Dean, and John Kerry, but not liking them does not make them anti-democracy. You're an intelligent guy, Fog. Why chain yourself to this limited vocabulary and outlook?

    It used to make me a little uneasy years ago, that all the cool, reasoned, intellectual arguments were always those promulgated by conservatives, while liberals like me dealt primarily from emotion and feeling. Those days are gone. "Conservatives" today rail against all forms of education and regularly disparage those who have achieved advanced degrees. Conservatives are "real people just like you and me; not these smarty pants eastern liberals." Nuance, context, meticulously constructed arguments have all gone away in favor of "moonbats," "why do you hate America?" and "the Democrat Party." It used to be that you could be a libertarian conservative, a fiscal conservative, a small-government conservative, or maybe have elements of all three. All you need to do now to be a conservative is to attend the correct churches, hate gays, denigrate the military service of people who actually served in combat, and support without question the CURRENT resident of the White House.

    These "conservatives" support big, controlling government running up huge deficits, whose leaders have no idea of how to exist in the larger world, and happily shred the bill of rights in doing so. I'm sure you're not one of them, Fog. Please don't talk like them.
     
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  5. FFCinPCB

    FFCinPCB New Member

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    HatterDon for President. Oh, and Luton Town won yesterday! This guy is on a f*cking roll.
     
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  6. pettyfog

    pettyfog Well-Known Member

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    Dont waste your breath, Don...I didnt get this way by listening to Rush, or hannity or watching Fox News. I got this way when I heard Goldwater say what he did about US in Viet NAm, and heard how some of the Press and MOST Dems spun it

    I tried swearing off Rush several times.. but I just get madder when I hear the news, I need support in the feeling that I'm not going insane.. need to know someone else recognizes REAL lying and spin when they hear it.


    And all those elements you describe STILL exist! No conservative is big-budget!

    The REAL pork-buster efforts are still run by sites that are mainly conservative.
    Real Conservatives DONT hate gays... why do you think they do? Most are like me; they say, it's YOUR life... do what you want and it's none of my business.
    But dont ask me for my approval and endorsement for it, and keep it out of my face.
    And when you ask me to be okay with Gays partaking in the sanctified marriage ritual you ARE in my face!

    ANd I'm pretty sure, the next Republican or Conservative you talk to will say the same. I'd vote FOR CIVIL UNIONS and the benefits and breaks that go with them any day. But twisting the constitution to make it 'legal'... FORGET IT!

    It's not a religious thing, it's a cultural thing, dealing with religious rites.

    By the way.. next time you hear or read someone 'gay-bashing' or accusing someone of it, and it concerns politics... why not check out or think about THEIR politics. I'm talking about those you might normally socialize with. Next time you see a 'blackface' caricature with a political bent.. check the politics!
    I'm sorry Buddy, it's you that's got the blinders on.
    ;)

    Why dont you read a few good blogs on the right and on the left...

    But especially the LEFT.. the two most active in that race were dailkos and atrios.. plus the democraticunderground.

    Then read conservative Captainsquarters and GatewayPundit.

    Read the comments on them... the audience for the blogs are the commenters.

    If you see the same level of bile and hate... then you got problems, maybe it's that you like seeing sensible comments contrary to your views.
    And I can point you to a scrape of Alan Colmes with a Lamont supporter behind him with a sign saying 'Hannity sucks ass', Ever see a young conservative do that on national tv?
    Huh?
    If you INSIST on drinking and serving the kool-aid, we'll each pick some blogs and post a nice 'comments digest'

    :wink:
     
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  7. HatterDon

    HatterDon Moderator

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    The sad reality of American politics is that it is, by definition, a major function of political parties to inform the voters of the issues. The last time a Democrat ran on the issues was Walter Mondale in 1984. The last time a Republican ran on the issues was Ronald Reagan in 1980. We'll never see it again. In the absence of intelligent discourse on politics; in the absence of phrases like "you make a lot of sense, but I'm afraid I don't agree with you," all we have is shrillness from the right -- and apparently from the left, although we're not allowed to listen to Air America in this part of the world.

    But why bother? Why would anyone want to listen to Rush or Air America? Why would anyone want to listen to a program, a network that only says over and over those things they agree with? The point of political discussion is to EXCHANGE ideas, nourish them, and help them mature. When I was teaching, I used to tell my students that in order for something to be an "issue," there had to be strong, compelling arguments on AT LEAST two sides. And that the only way to express an intelligent opinion about an issue is to examine ALL the arguments. I did not tell them only to listen to and process those opinions they agree with and call those with counter opinions "moonbats." But then I believe in tolerance and that's a dangerous liberal trait.

    I'm glad you've found real conservatives instead of the mass of idiots calling themselves that these days. I'm afraid I've given up the hunt. I don't think there's anyone out there without an agenda; I don't think there's anyone out there who listens half as much as he talks.

    If I talk politics at all these days, I talk to members of my family -- none of whom has ever understood my love for progressive liberalism NOR my love for soccer. I have a brother who's a libertarian conservative, and a brother who's a fiscal conservative. In the last 30 years the three of us have only agreed on one thing: the war in Iraq is stupid, ill thought-out, and should have never happened. We discovered that we each held this opinion the day the war started. Interestingly, whereas I blame the neocons in the administration for the war, they blame the Democratic Party. And so it goes.

    And I like Barry Goldwater too. I saluted him once when he was on active duty shortly after the 1964 election. I especially like his brand of libertarian conservatism. We'll never see its like or his like again. You have a point that "real" conservatives don't believe in deficits or big, intrusive government, but they're all supporting this administration, aht that's about all this administration stands for.

    And I saw the poster. I wasn't able to determine the political philosophy of the person holding it, however. Guess your radar is better than mine.

    Anyhow, you keep on, bro. At least we're still free on the internet to say what we want. For the moment.
     
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  8. pettyfog

    pettyfog Well-Known Member

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    Jan 4, 2005
    When that freedom is taken away, bro... it wont be by real conservatives of any ilk.

    Check your local college campuses.

    And by that I DONT mean wording, I mean political views.. Check out your elected progressive reps who want to apply campaign rules to talk radio.
    Check out McCain/Feingold.. which made things WORSE, not better.
     
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  9. Spencer

    Spencer Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2005
    I would like it if a three party system arose but I can't see it happening. The two parties in place are such power house fundraising machines. It is simply not viable to run without the endorsement of one of the two. No money=no votes. Liberman is an exception as he's a long standing incumbent and has many donors and allies who will stick with him. He will win as it appears to Republicans don't have a strong candidate in this election. He already garners half the dem vote and will take the independents and republicans in the general election.

    Basically for a third party to arise a lot of guys on the fringes of their party would have to all have the guts to break away at the same time and get a major fund raising body up and running in no time or their re-election is in serious doubt.

    That said I would quite like the three party system. Look at four party system in Canada for example.

    Conservative- most right, currently in power after 11 years out of power if they were an American party the republicans would paint them as left wing loonies, I really think they are a lot closer to Democrats than Republicans

    Liberal- they're well liberal, really established

    New Democratic Party(NDP)- p-fog would say their socialist, hell I kinda think they're socialist, they run on environment, equality, ect, all good things. Their candidate for PM in the last election actually lives in Public Housing in Toronto! They have one crazy idea that irks me, pay mothers a salary to be stay at home moms. I would never vote for them.

    Quebec Bloc- built on separation of Quebec from Canada, seem to get what ever they can for Quebec and say to hell with the rest of the country, that’s always been my take on them anyway

    All these parties grab a sizeable chunk of seats. It makes for real interesting deal making and alliances. Really fun to watch. It can be hard to get stuff done but how is that any different then Washington?

    Note there are also small fringe parties like the Green Party- makes no sense to me as the NDP have very strong Green stances, the Christian Heritage Party, and probably a few others I've never heard of.
     
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  10. ChicagoTom

    ChicagoTom Administrator

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    I think I am going to restart the Whig party again next week. Should be a good time!! Anyone want in?
     
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  11. FFCinPCB

    FFCinPCB New Member

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    You're TOTALLY Whiggin, Tom. :shock:
     
    #11
  12. HatterDon

    HatterDon Moderator

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    Tom, I'll give CP a two-point bump on our season-long bet if you can tell me why the party was called the "Whigs."
     
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  13. HatterDon

    HatterDon Moderator

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    To quote Reagan, "There you go again." All liberals don't support the same things. I like McCain a lot, but I don't agree with limiting campaign spending. I'm a civil libertarian, and I don't believe we should criminalize talk radio or Swift Boat Veterans any more than I think we should criminalize other forms of political expression -- like flag burning.
     
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  14. ChicagoTom

    ChicagoTom Administrator

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    Don,
    I won't take any free points in our bet, plus I used the Internet, but this is what I found:

    The name came into use in the 1680s in England when there was the threat of establishment of a line of Catholic Kings, starting with James II. The Protestant element, who held that Parliament could prevent such a succession, came to be called Whigs after a radical Presbyterian group in Scotland, the Whigamores, while the party tending to the doctrine of the rights of King James II (and naturally containing Catholic as well as simply royalist elements), were called Tories after some bands of Irish Catholics who had been driven to become outlaws due to the crusade of the English against the church they clung to.

    Is that right?
     
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  15. pettyfog

    pettyfog Well-Known Member

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    Don.. come ON!

    I'm talking about 'land grant' and 'Liberal Arts' colleges, not Bible schools.

    Dont dissemble. You REALLY DONT want me posting incident by incident.

    {added} By the way.. I dont lump even progressives together. It is NOT personal. However, just as moderate peaceful Muslims must take some blame for the direction of the religion, those who allow stifling of dissent or expression by masking it as 'Hate Speech' while the most radical of them are using WORSE terms, themselves are culpable.

    Socialism never has and never will work to level society, but expression of the ideas must be allowed.
     
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  16. HatterDon

    HatterDon Moderator

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    Sure is; so far. but my question was about the American political party known by the same name. How did IT become known as the Whigs? It was their choice, by the way.
     
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  17. ChicagoTom

    ChicagoTom Administrator

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    I guess I forgot to paste this little part in as well:

    The designation of British loyalists during the American Revolution - as Tories - is well known. And many on the revolutionary side must have identified with the English Whigs, which continued to be the party in favor of Parliament's keeping the king in check.

    Yeah?
     
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  18. HatterDon

    HatterDon Moderator

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    I didn't respond to your "campus" quote; hope that didn't make you think I didn't believe you.

    I don't believe in "Hate Speech" or "Hate Crimes" legislation either. They criminalize what people are thinking. If the speech or the activity is illegal in and of itself, then the appropriate statutes apply. If the speech or activity is not illegal, then what a person is thinking while making that speech shouldn't be criminalized. College statutes and ill-conceived legislation are usually dealt with by the Judicial system, as it has over and over in terms of campaign finance. Land Grant colleges [oooh, public ... baaaaaaaaad] however have not tried to make a run around free speech and free expression by proposing and pushing hard for Constitutional amendments limiting it. It is your own Conservative movement and its highly patriotic members of the legislative and executive branches who do this year after year with the flag burning amendment. As anyone who has spent just a few weeks in the military can tell you, the only legal way to dispose of the US flag is by burning it. In other words, this amendment is not only designed to criminalize a legal activity, it's designed to criminalize the ONLY legal way to do it. They want to add to our constitution the ability of the government to regulate what people are thinking while they're not breaking the law. Real libertarian conservatives would rise up in horror at the prospect of this. But, instead, "Conservatives" are the ones leading the charge to do just that. It's they who are the danger to our Bill of Rights freedoms, not some loudmouth on a college campus.
     
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  19. HatterDon

    HatterDon Moderator

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    Not really, but I won't leave you twisting in the wind. Here's the thing:

    So powerful was Andrew Jackson in his day and so pervasive his influence on national, state, and even local politics, that those who opposed him referred to him publicly as "King Andrew." Since the "loyal opposition" to the British crown at the time were known as "Whigs," they adopted that name to make their anti-Jacksonian position clear.
     
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  20. ChicagoTom

    ChicagoTom Administrator

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    As Johnny Carson once said, "I did not know." You learn something new everyday. Thanks for the history tidbit Don!

    Now back to the debate Petty and Don! You have an audience here. You may not realize, but you do. Carry on.
     
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