Summer '08: Ins and Outs

I'm never going to understand it. Why? Because Mo is nearly a billionaire and CAN afford to do this. Don't give me this shit about how we can't afford higher wages. That's rubbish. Complete shit. We offered Steed 50K a week to stay here, I don't want to hear about how we can't afford it. We're cheap. Now if you want to use that argument then go right ahead, but to say we can't afford to compete for top 10 is complete and utter crap.

 

One rumour is we are targeting Andre Bikey(Reading). A big defender who can play Center or Right Back from Cameroon. He is only 23 and decent sized. Also, Stephen Hunt (Reading). The annoying sparkplug that never stops moving. I would to see him in a Fulham uniform. Sort of a better Dennis Franchino (SP?) of the Galaxy. Louis Saha is probably on his way out at Man U. 29 and is stilll quality. Check out the Rumour Mill in the Manchester Guardian.

 

This is exactly the kind of attitude I can't stand. Money grows on trees and Al Fayed better give it up. No care whatsoever for Fulham's financial viability. No understanding of Fulham's place in the world. No understanding of what other teams are doing. No understanding of what other teams are capable of.

 

Lyle, face it. You are an eliteist and a bore. You approach members with some puzzling air of superioirty and feel the need to decide how others should approach and think. I'll bet you probably think you are trying to be helpful.

Problem you have is you think in a small sandbox. That is your problem. You look back and think how things were and are and not about what they can be. You use subtle differences and vagaries to support your positions, which perpetuates the elitiest mentality. You're a limiter and a bit of a whiner.

Discoursing with you, as I have read others try to throughout this board, is a just a plain waste of time because you don't do it with an attempt to understand. You just judge.

I won't be as tactful as Don was earlier because you don't deserve it. Grow up Lyle.

 

Let me start by saying that I'm not trying to attack anyone's position, just trying to understand the dynamics of English football b/c everyone says you can't look at it like US sports.

So what is Fulham's place in the world? What are the revenue figures? Is the club profitable or leaking money? Is there room for growth?

As to the Billy Bean comment, how about David Moyes?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2008/05/10/sfnwin110.xml

And more revealing....

Ok, so this states the club are spending better than 13th, albeit, poorly under Sanchez. However the point is, the resources (or willingness to allocate resources) are there to at minimum, rise above the relegation scrap each year. Overachieve by several places and you could make the UEFA cup and gain additional monies.

It leads me to believe that the potential is there to do more than the club have done. You draw 90+%. You're in London and play in the most popular league in the world that earns the highest revenues. There's plenty of room for improvement to market the club (this applies to pretty much all of the teams outside of ManU, Arsenal & Chelsea). And from a marketing perspective, you have the most unique advantage over every other club (again, outside of the Big 4). I see plenty of reasons for optimism and (now that they seem to have secured a good mgr) far less for pessimism.

 

David Moyes must have read "Moneyball' and been to Oakland a few times.

Well stated FulhamAg.

 

You know who also has read "Moneyball" - Steve Coppell. He's also an example of going the Oakland A's route in English football. Reading bought players almost exclusively from overseas and at dirt cheap prices, and they relied on their own players they came up with from the Championship (shall we say system developed players).

This Reading Football Club and Steve Coppell just got relegated.

Comparing Everton to the Oakland Athletics is just ridiculous. They have a very healthy budget, large stadium, and lots of fans. It's a big club; not a small club. They aren't a big four club, but they a top ten "franchise" in England. Is Oakland a top ten franchise in MLB? Don't think so.

Aidy Boothroyd is another guy who's read Moneyball (there's an article I linked to last year about this... him and Martin O'Neill). Moneyball helped him get relegated last year and not get promoted this year.

Don't get me wrong, I love "Moneyball" and it's a really nice idea to apply it to the EPL, but you just can't apply sabrmetrics to English football and get the same results like you do in MLB. Ain't going to happen.

Fulham, if you haven't noticed, can't even compete with Everton for players. So Oakland A's my bum.

 

I just make arguments.

 

Old Man Fulham ,

Love me some Branch Rickey... and yep it's amazing Fulham survived. I never gave up hope, but I had begun to think about League One actually and getting stuck down there. Gave me the trimbles.

And hey, who of you lovelies thought Danny Murphy would play such an important role in it?

I know I did!!! Up yours people who hated on Danny Murphy!!! Who are ya! Who are ya! Who are ya!

 

Over here, I cursed him out under my breath several times before April.

What is a good website to look at players salaries in the EPL and Europe? I want to do some research before I start advertising my ignorance. One interesting thing is that the Cheesehead is definitely available for a price. I don't know what happened between him and Aidy but DeMerit has politely and diplomatically said that their relationship has definitely soured and he is ready to shop his services.

 

Lyle, a couple of things that you are off point on:

1) Sabremetrics is a TOOL and you are correct doesn’t directly apply to football, we agree on that

2) Moneyball is a philosophy

3) Tools are used to implement philosophies in business (Sports, MLB, EPL or whatever sports are businesses)

4) Sabremetrics does not equal Moneyball, just in case you weren't sure

5) The biggest determinate of an organizations success with a philosophy is management and EXECUTION. Resources are important but subordinate.

Utilizing a philosophy doesn't guarantee success. Understanding that philosophy, as it pertains to what you have and can control, and then executing it with maniacal focus is what determines whether or not a philosophy will work for you and your level of success.

Your inability, once again, to see parallels with football in England and American sports management, and to understand that execution is the key to all success and not just the philosophy, is your Achilles heal. The vagaries and subtleties of European Football that you continue to use as reasons not to enable a club like Fulham to compete at a higher level are crap and are not unique enough to exclude the use of common sense philosophies in lieu of spending your way to success like the Yankees and Chelsea do.

For god’s sake dude, Fulham’s recent relegation run is the biggest proof of a what several of us are saying. Everyone on this site was saying a few months ago (actually weeks) what a crap bunch of low quality players this team had, a how Sanchez ruined the team, and with a change in management and philosophy and the addition of a couple of good players (not great), they did something they hadn’t done in many years; win three in a row on the road. And now we all think the Fulham side isn’t so bad.

They can be a top 10 side if they execute at all levels and with the things they can control. As Hatter pointed out, Roy seems to be the kind of guy that can bring more to the organization than getting the guys fired up on the weekend.

 

My first instinct was to agree with you because it seems that every conceivable stat in baseball is measured and no other sport does that. But just b/c football doesn't keep as in-depth of statistics doesn't mean that there aren't relevant quantifiable stats that can determine future success at a given position. Before Bill James, there were far fewer stats kept in baseball.

And while I'm not here to defend Moneyball and will agree that given enough money you can beat that system regularly, it's a valuable concept for teams competing with less resources. Will they crack the big 4? Probably not, but the idea wasn't rounding up the cheapest team you could field, it was about identifying the best value for whatever budget you had to work with. Beane admitted in the book they probably wouldn't win a World Series with their budget, but they didn't have to be relegated to the bottom 10 in the league year in and year out b/c of that budget either.

If there's one thing I've learned in watching 2 years of EPL (not much, I know) it's that teams are very inefficient with their transfer money and only 4 can afford to be so.

Back to Everton, they may well be a top 10 side, but they haven't spent top 10 money and finished 5th two years running. That was the comparison I was making. That and that Fulham actually outspent them and at least 7 other teams, so it's completely rational to expect a 10-15th finish.

 

I've heard next to nothing concerning players leaving or coming into the club. The posts for this thread have jumped by leaps and bounds. Don't think I'm going to take the time to read 3 pages worth of text.

I hope nobody has delusions of grandeur that this side will be fit to face another prem season at present. Loads of players need to go and make room for players who will progress the club forward. Bargain buying needs to stop and quality, not quantity, should be the focus off the summer.

Let's be honest. Fulham caught lightning in a bottle. It was a hell of a way to end the season, thrilling to say the least, but I would much rather finish higher than 17th in the coming season.

 

Haha, how soon I forget last summer's thread concerning ins and outs. I believe that thread was up to nearly 600 posts before a single player was signed.

It does give Fulham fans something to bide the time during the off season. Let the speculation continue and I'll keep a close watch on this gossip/tabloid haven.

Cheers

 

Everton has spent top 10 money. You were only looking at their wage bill I think. They have also spent money in the transfer market to buy Tim Howard, Yakubu, Phil Jagielka, and the LB from Wigan who's name escapes me. They also brought in two big loan guys: Pienaar and Fernandes.

They've also bought a bunch of top English youth players from lower division clubs, e.g., Dan Gosling from Plymouth.

I don't disagree with the Philosophy you guys are talking about. I've been writing the same thing over and over since last summer: buy foreign and invest in English/British youth. The problem is it takes a whole bunch of years to get to where you want to go.

Fulham finished 17th and almost (probably should have) got relegated. Bum rushing the top 10 just isn't going to happen next year. Theoretically it could happen, but it verly likely want. At best, Fulham will get a little bit better and finish a few spots higher than 17th. Relegation, however, will be a distinct possibility again.

Another X factor is "prestige". Everton is a club with a whole lot of history; was the last non-Big Four team to play Champions League football; has more fans; and plays in a bigger stadium. They are also building a new and larger stadium.

The main point is: Fulham isn't in the same league as Everton no matter what table you look at that says otherwise. Fulham has little to no chance of signing any player looking Everton's way this summer.

 

Why else would he own a club if he wasn't willing to spend? If you're not willing to spend in this day and age, then get out of the business. That goes for any owner. If you own a club and have lots of cash, like he has, then it should be expected of you to at least spend a little here and there to move this club forward. I mention brining in 3 or 4 really good players and you go into a fit about how we can't afford their wages. Like 3 or 4 players is going to totally throw off a team financially. I understand more than you think and I realise that us keep doing the same things we've been doing will only result in us being relegated sooner rather than later.

 

Cant believe I'm reading about Fulham and Branch Rickey in the same thread - I must be in heaven.

 

Anyone else read that Fulham is rumored to be in for Scott Carson? I've read that from several sources.

To be honest, is he much better than Niemi? Liverpool's asking price would be fairly high and I don't believe he is head and shoulders better than Niemi or even Keller with the way he finished the season.