Isreal setting a bad example?

Discussion in 'Miscellaneous' started by Smokin', Jul 14, 2006.

  1. Smokin'

    Smokin' Administrator

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    Citing the recent efforts of the Isrealis to destroy the countries trying to destroy them...

    http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/ ... index.html

    I was wondering whether or not this is sending out the wrong message to the jewish youth about how to handle being bullied.

    Suppose I pick on the local fundamental jew... which ever type we pick. I call attention to his yamaka (sp?), point and giggle, maybe even try to cut his curly locks from under his hat... whatever...

    Should I expect jets and tanks to come burn down my house, blow up my drive way, and bomb my yard?

    I'm in no way condoning the actions of the kidnappers in anyway here... I'm just wondering if the political machine there knows that when they react with such force that DOES NOT immediately effect the kidnappers themselves, nor does yeild any constructive results, it doesnt help their situation, it doesnt make anyone feel safer, and it doesnt stop.

    This perpetual, its never ending... now we can expect violence to escalate past the levels we are used to and Israel will be soon be on the top of most terror lists as well.

    I am I the only one scared by this?
     
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  2. Spencer

    Spencer New Member

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    No you’re not the only one. I too find this scary. I can see this escalating into full out war. They bombed a civilian airport and a suburb for god sake.

    Basically as I understand it Lebanon funds Hezbolla. Basically Hezbolla is a wing of the Lebanese military. So Hezbolla goes into Israel and kidnaps soldiers. I'd say yes Israel is in the right to retaliate against the Lebanese government.

    I fear other Mid East countries jumping in on this. That would be disastrous. I guess the question is, does the west jump in. If they do then we have a West vs. Middle East battle. Not good.

    I hope it can be avoided. I don't see places like Saudi Arabia and Egypt as egar to jump in to a war. Even Iran probably don't feel their ready for a major conflict. Hopefully it blows over.
    :(
     
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  3. ChicagoTom

    ChicagoTom Administrator

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    I have some harsh comments about many of the parties involved in this mess and instead of offending people, I will keep them to myself.

    But, in short, yes, I fear this is only the beginning of a huge problem for the Middle East, the US and potentially the rest of the world.
     
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  4. ickle_monk

    ickle_monk New Member

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    i think that nowadays the reason for all these atrocities have been forgotten and its just basicvally a retaliation for the retaliations.

    As a jew, im naturally tending towards the israeli side, however, this maybe not the case. There are extremists on both sides, a very small minority though.

    I was just thinking the other day... whatever happened to forgive and forget? I think theyve already forgotten why they started in the first place.
     
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  5. Smokin'

    Smokin' Administrator

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    Thats part of my point I guess...

    Shouldnt they be the example instead of the exception?

    In other words, when you and I are archrivals and I run cross the border to yourside blowing myself up and like 7 people. Is the proper retaliation to send warmachines, such as tanks, jets, helicopters, etc through to the next avaible town on my side of the border and just start taking civilian infastructure out?

    Really, this is just harvesting hate... the Hezzbolah are nuts, again, I'm not making them victims, but the youth that lives around the destruction is so much more likely to turn terrorist from birth when there is lopsided violence.
     
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  6. pettyfog

    pettyfog Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I agree.

    As an example we should look back to our experiences in Viet Nam and how measured response worked so well, for so long... Before Nixon started escalating things when he took over on JFK's assassination.

    Remember how things were after Walter Cronkite declared the war won and tens of thousands of Saigonese later deserted their businesses and bars and street kiosks to welcome and sprinkle rose petals for the entering NVA.

    And how hundreds of thousands of expat Vietnamese headed back to their homeland some risking death and piracy in the South China Seas to become one nation.

    Yes, we have all the historical examples we need.... Albright for President!
     
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  7. pettyfog

    pettyfog Well-Known Member

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    #7
  8. arwIII1970

    arwIII1970 New Member

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    Marine barracks 1983.

    ...Sorry, someone else can "peacekeep" in Beirut.
     
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  9. ChicagoTom

    ChicagoTom Administrator

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    I heard some interesting points on the Israeli-Lebanon (Hezbollah) conflict this morning on Meet The Press by New York Times columnist and Middle East expert Thomas L. Friedman.

    It is very hard to summarize what he said, but if you get a chance to record a repeat of the how, it is worth it to listen to. He gives some very good perspective and some possible ways to break up the ties between Hezbollah and Iran by trying to talk with Syria and such.

    Obviously there is more to that, but he also brought up a good point about how the current administration here in the USA is always talking about doom and gloom from parts around the world rather than speaking of hope for not only this country, but other, less fortunate countries around the world.

    Unfortunately, Bush and the administration has severed all ties and lost any hopes for this conflict and other conflicts in the future to garner any support for potential "peace-keeping" missions.

    I am getting off base here, but Thomas L. Friedman knows his stuff on Middle-East related topics.
     
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  10. Spencer

    Spencer New Member

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    I'm reading his The World Is Flat book right now. Very good but kinda depressing reading about how all these kids in India, Taiwan, China and all other sorts of places are smarter and more ambitious then I and are eager to steal my job and do it for a lot less money. He insists a flatter world is a better world, but from my point of view I'm not so sure.
     
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  11. ChicagoTom

    ChicagoTom Administrator

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    I was just looking on Amazon for some of Friedman's books and saw that one. However, I am holding off right now as I am reading a few books HatterDon lent to me.
     
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  12. Spencer

    Spencer New Member

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    Well I recommend what I've read so far. He doesn’t fit a mold. He seems a die hard capitalist but socially liberal.
     
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  13. Spencer

    Spencer New Member

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    This thing is getting way out of hand. Israel is destroying the infrastructure of the country over this thing and probably strengthening Hezbolla support as a result. Luckily other Arab states have acted with caution(or fear) and stayed out of it so far.
     
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  14. pettyfog

    pettyfog Well-Known Member

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    Yes... one of Ronnie's ABSOLUTE failures of judgement on a par with Carter's inaction on the Embassy takeover*. And it inspired Bin Laden immeasurably.

    Interesting that some dont see the similarity of that, with what concessions Israel made and the results thereof....

    * In fact, Reagan should have seen what the UN did about the Embassy and seen how the UN really was. But we still had some faith in it.. as well as the saw about 'it's because WE are there'!

    You guys have glommed obviously on the true fact that this is Iran's Proxy War with Syria as agent... but you STILL want Israel to make the changes necessary for the peace.

    While Anderson Cooper at SEE Nothing Nowhere is 'shocked' at the outright, unrepentent Anti-Semitism of Hezbollah.

    No, not anti-Zionism, or anti-Israel.. anti Jew.

    It's guys like you guys ... who keep making excuses for outright evil.. that are going to end up going berserker and doing hate crimes against 'innocent' Muslims once the curtain of deception rots away and falls.

    Note I am not being specific.. and not pointing fingers at individuals.. hopefully none of you does that... I'm just an observer of human nature and that's the way it often turns out.

    And Tom, Friedman has been debunked so many time that the ONLY real print media that would hire him is the NYT.

    I mean.. that is so fucking laughable... that it is PURE 180 degree SPIN! Who was it was positive in their outlook, who is it that believes Arabs are incapable of forming a democracy... too bad you cant read all Friedman's stuff for the last 4 years!
     
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  15. ChicagoTom

    ChicagoTom Administrator

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    Say what you want about Friedman but the man had a lot of intelligent things to say about the Middle East on 'Meet the Press' last Sunday with Tim Russert.

    This Israel-Lebanon war is a microcosm of a war between the US/England against Iran/Afghanistan and the other nations that harbor terrorists. I do not have a solution to this problem.

    Until these idiots from these countries find something better to do with their time rather than just hating Americans and what we represent, they might build a decent country themselves. This is being said to both sides of the issue.

    Speaking of Friedman, he brought up a good point last weekend. Why is it that that India, the second most populated Muslim country in the world, had a hotel of some sorts blow up about six weeks ago and instead of retaliating and pointing fingers and trying to lay blame, they have been restrained from doing such things. Why is that?

    Perhaps there is a simple answer I do not know of. I do not claim to be an expert in the Middle East or politics at all, but something needs to be done to curtail this hate against the US and anyone that backs us.

    Contrary to what all the elephants will tell you, George W. Bush has NOT lessened the number of terrorists or terrorist groups in the world since 9/11. In fact, I think his exploits in Iraq have made for more there and in other parts of the world and probably here in the US as well. His policies are NOT working. Something needs to change. Different strategies and different methods of trying to break through in the middle east.

    We need good leadership right now and unfortunately on both sides of the aisle not many people stand out as the kind of leaders we need right now.
     
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  16. pettyfog

    pettyfog Well-Known Member

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    No, he has not 'lessened' terrorist numbers... but it is out in the open, now. You cant deny their existence or their aims.

    It's a hard thing to pull your head out'sa the sand but the time would come, sooner or later when you have to choose sides and quit making excuses for the actions of the evil. Especially by accusing your own of the same... without any merit or proof.

    Which is a well known psychological effect called "Displacement"

    It also doesnt help when some hit back at those around them, rahter than those who are at fault in the first place.
     
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  17. FFCinPCB

    FFCinPCB New Member

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    Imagine that, a Republican with a knee-JERK reaction, but no long term plan. Who would have thunk it?

    An elephant may never forget, but they also apparently don't plan to well for the future either.
     
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  18. ChicagoTom

    ChicagoTom Administrator

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    But Bush would never admit this would he? That is my problem with this administration. There have been clear mistakes made in terms of the war in Iraq and events surrounding that, but they will never admit when they are wrong. They are all so hard-headed that instead of focusing on righting their own wrong, they continue doing wrong and as Bush said regardin withdrawal of troops in Iraq, "that will be up the next President." What the hell is that about?

    Bush and his cronies have no answers to the problems this country faces. I do not either, but then again I am not the president or the leader of the "free world."

    Petty, what has Bush done to better this country in regards to foreign policy?
     
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  19. Spencer

    Spencer New Member

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    While slumbering into a my post golf game nap this afternoon I flipped on CSPAN(normally no better thing to launch you into a nap). I saw Tony Blair giving a press conference about the topic and he made some good points.

    One of the main things he emphasized was that Hezbolla need to be put to rest for good (duh!), but to do that you not only need to destroy them in the short term but cut the funding. He was dismayed by the lack of attention the British media had been giving to just how Hezbolla is funded, that being the Syrian and Iranian governments.

    went on to say....

    A couple days ago Iranian pres Almehedajad went on record as saying the solution is to destroy Israel. So here's a guy who wants Israel gone forever, he’s doing something about it in funding Hezbolla. His money is in turn now being used to kill Israeli civilians. Yet the media and the world at large is ignoring Almehedajads threats hoping it goes away. Blair didn't say this but I read into as "sounds a hell of a lot like Hitler". I mean he invaded a few countries and the world still looked the other way. Blair’s point was look at it from Israel’s view, they have zero room for error and they must take all threats seriously. Particularly when Iranian funded terrorists enter your country, kidnap your soldiers, and lob rockets into a few of your major cites.

    Other main point on this matter was; what if it was someone else’s policy that the solution was to destroy Iran or Lebanon or Syria. (a reverse of the Iran position) Talking to the media Blair said "you'd be burning down the house yet when its Iran you let it go without notice". Why is that I wonder?

    Honestly I can see it from both sides, that being Israel and Lebanon certainly not Iran’s. While Israel has no room for error there must be a better way to crippling Hezbolla then dropping a bomb on an apartment building where you think a rocket may be hidden and in the process killing 20 civilians

    I obviously don’t remember Blair’s exact quotes but I’m sure I got the jest of it.
     
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  20. FFCinPCB

    FFCinPCB New Member

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    Surely you jest? Oh, I get the jist.

    So answers to question with.....more questions. Israel is armed to the teeth, but obviously they have apprehension about attacking Iran and Syria, and not because they are afraid of the industrialized world's reaction (because I am fairly certain not even Russia would stop them).

    The tectonic plates of world power are shifting my friends. May be some very uncomfortable days ahead of us as we smack into reality, but it is only the nature of men (and mice?).
     
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