Hurricane Katrina

pettyfog · Sep 2, 2005

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Hurricane Katrina

Yeah.. well, I'm sure we're gonna argue plenty when we reprise this tragedy. I turned into Air America briefly yesterday and wanted to vomit!

Meantime let's fix the mistakes and get those people out of there.... and kill the 'urban guerillas' if they so much as point a gun.

JohnnyCash · Sep 2, 2005

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Hurricane Katrina

My office is right next door to the Coast Guard's Search and Rescue Operational Center. I was talking to a guy who was telling me that some of the search and rescue guys haven't even been back to their houses at this point. They were at the Air stations when the hurricane hit, and as soon as the winds died down they were out flying SAR missions. A lot of these guys are probably going to be homeless as well when this stuff is settled.

As far as looters, my roomate made a good point. They're stealing TVs that just a few days ago were under 20' of water...none of them work. I get a little bit of satisfaction out of that.

JohnnyCash · Sep 2, 2005

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Hurricane Katrina

As far as the federal response...its been pathetic. Ted Koppel tore Michael Brown a new one last night during Nightline. While not working directly on disaster relief stuff for DHS, I know how much time and effort has been spent by the Department to prepare for an instance like this since 9/11. They've been working to increase cooperation between states, between the States and the Federal Government, and even between different Departments and Agencies within the Federal government.

This is the first large scale disaster that the Department has had to deal with. Its discouraging to see how far they have to go. right now we have a refugee crisis...in the United States. people are dying of hunger and thirst in the United States.

JohnnyCash · Sep 2, 2005

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Hurricane Katrina

what a dick

FEMA chief: Victims bear some responsibility

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/01/k ... index.html

pettyfog · Sep 2, 2005

"I don't make judgments about why people chose not to leave but, you know, there was a mandatory evacuation of New Orleans," he said.

"And to find people still there is just heart-wrenching to me because, you know, the mayor did everything he could to get them out of there.

"So, we've got to figure out some way to convince people that whenever warnings go out it's for their own good," Brown said. "Now, I don't want to second guess why they did that. My job now is to get relief to them.
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Now... just what is it about that that you REALLY dispute?

I'll answer for you... it's the assumption that those people most affected had the ways and means to get out, before the 'cane.
There was no plan for them, and I ask if that is really the responsibility of FEMA to be proactive on that issue. Perhaps if LA or NO had a plan...

No where FEMA has fallen down is not that they have no plan for BEFORE the disaster..I think you will see that their charter is on RESPONSE.. it's that they didnt have their act together once the flooding was apparent.

But like I said above.... why place blame, now? What good does it do, now?!!!!
- - - -- - -
Dan.. my point was that if the able-bodied could, or would, have walked out to the outlying areas that would have lessened the load on the response teams.. and SURELY saved thousands.

I am not blaming them for NOT walking out. They knew full well they risked losing whatever they had left. And many were looking after infirm friends or relatives. Which is why many didnt leave before the 'cane.

However! This certainly MUST be considered to be key element in response and evacuation in the future. Leaving possessions and the infirm behind will be hard, but everyone MUST be aware of the consequences.

How much easier it would have been to declare Martial Law and 'shoot-on-sight' if one were surer that the innocent wouldnt be caught in the middle.
- -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I suggest you {rhetorical} ponder a thought I just recalled:

There must be a special place in Hell for those who exploit a tragedy or suffering of others for personal gain.

I'll leave the definition of 'personal gain' for you to decide.

JohnnyCash · Sep 2, 2005

I made one statement. the guy is a dick. There's finger pointing going on already between Federal, State and Local officials while people are still starving and living on their roof.

and what's my personal gain by calling this guy a dick.

should I repost your rant the DAY OF the london bombings...hypocrite

pettyfog · Sep 2, 2005

Seriously Jeff, sometimes I wonder how you think!

I mean the rant there was about the terms used by the press "panick, chaos, terror" and I proposed that none of those were in abundance. While praising the public.

OTOH, they DO apply to the New Orleans tragedy.

And btw, I was quoting you for point, not for recrimination. AND IN FACT DID AGREE WITH YOU without saying as much! It was a point that need not have been put forward. But I wonder what his motivation was in doing so... I think there was more than just CYA.
-AND-
WTF would you seem to take that personally!??"????????? I DO take being called a hypocrite personally.

JohnnyCash · Sep 2, 2005

I took the special place reserved in hell as being directed at me, if not then I apologize and retract the hypocrite comment...you've edited since I posted that so now i need to reread.

And by the way FEMA does have preperation and prevention in their charter.

pettyfog · Sep 2, 2005

They do?

Well... prove it. I looked at the FEMA site and saw nothing about preliminary response. Only the standard preparedness advice. That's the same stuff you get from your insurance company. and read it.. certainly NOTHING covering this magnitude.

Anyway, let's get a little objective here:

1. This is the worst natural disaster since the 1906 SF quake... or The Glaveston disaster And probably will rival or exceed the New Madrid quake in the mid 1800's

2. Read this while sorting out blame

3. It is the responsibility of the local governments to get what preparedness aid they need from the federal funding:

- That is why there is a 'congress'. But, as pork goes, levee and waterway anti-flooding is way down the glamor list for the various senators and rep's. Museums and roads that can be named for past or present politico's work a lot better come campaign time

4. There IS NO DOUBT that this has blindsided DHS and FEMA... the scenario should have been covered in internal Security brainstorming, as it would have been a possibility on the 'terror-strike' response planning.

5. If Congress had elected to budget MORE on internal security, however, where on the list would this have fallen? Remember that the emphasis by administration opponents has been on inspection and hardening of high profile targets and infrastructure.
The refineries and pipelines would have been up there in rank... but the levee's?!! I doubt it.

But as I say, this doesnt do anything to fix the current crisis... nor does calling some poor Dept head a 'dick' for being 'insensitive'.

JohnnyCash · Sep 2, 2005

The problem is that it is the responsibility of DHS to be ready for a situation like this, they were not blindsided, they had at least three days warning that a major storm was going to hit the Gulf States.

Also, i'm not talking about this situation specifically. Imagine if the damage and destruction from this hurrican was actually a terrorist attack with no warning or evacuation. This has been the first measure of how prepared our federal government is to respond to a major catastrophe, and, in my opinion, they have failed. A terrorist strike would have been much worse.

I think Michael Brown is an insensitive prick. that was a different post and has nothing to do with what I'd written previously.

pettyfog · Sep 2, 2005

Onward and upward...I will put up some quotes in a few weeks or so and ask again, who is the insenstive prick.

meanwhile:

"If a hurricane comes next month," says Ivor van Heerden, director of Louisiana State University's Center for the Study of Public Health Impacts of Hurricanes, "New Orleans could no longer exist."
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-USAToday, 7/18/05

more:

A few years ago, the American Red Cross ranked the prospect of a hurricane's hitting New Orleans as the country's deadliest natural disaster threat, with up to 100,000 dead. Still, many Big Easy denizens insist they'll stay put for the next one. "There's a reason New Orleans has a drink called the hurricane," says Jeanne Hurlbert, an LSU sociology professor. "The culture here is 'we don't evacuate.'"

That culture has thrived, in part, because a deadly hurricane hasn't struck New Orleans since 1965, when Category 3 Betsy killed 75. But most residents faced only minor flooding. "Natives feel we withstood Betsy, so we could withstand anything," says Gayle Guerin, 49. In 1998, Hurricane Georges narrowly skirted the city, but just 1 in 3 residents evacuated. "They say it's coming, but it never does," says Avis Williams, 43, a father of six.

Higher ground. That philosophy was tested last September, as Hurricane Ivan approached. Gaynel Jones, 54, got nervous and fled with about 20 relatives--to the Days Inn downtown, 10 miles from her single-story home. She figured her family was safe from flooding on the sixth floor. Ivan wound up sparing the Crescent City, making landfall near Pensacola, Fla., where it killed 11. Should another hurricane threaten New Orleans, Jones says she'll most likely check into a hotel again. "There's nothing you can do, Jones says, "so you leave it in the hands of God."

A recent poll by the University of New Orleans suggests that 62 percent of greater New Orleans's 1.3 million residents would feel safe in their homes during a Category 3 storm. "We're a victim of our own good luck," says Susan Howell, the poll's director. The city's high poverty rate is another hurdle; almost 1 in 6 households has no car.

New Orleans is more vulnerable today than ever. Development and levee construction have put 500,000 acres of nearby coastal wetlands under water since 1965, eliminating buffers against the wind-fueled spikes in water levels known as storm surges. Even a Betsy-like Level 3 storm, which has winds of up to 130 mph, is now more likely to trigger storm surges in the Mississippi River or Lake Pontchartrain that could spill over levee walls. The resulting flood could take months to drain. "You're talking about creating a refugee camp for a million homeless residents," says van Heerden.
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JohnnyCash · Sep 2, 2005

This is really incredible.

This guy holed himself up in an office building in downtown and has had internet access run off diesel generators.

http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/

JohnnyCash · Sep 2, 2005

4. There IS NO DOUBT that this has blindsided DHS and FEMA... the scenario should have been covered in internal Security brainstorming, as it would have been a possibility on the 'terror-strike' response planning
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It was

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/02/ ... index.html

pettyfog · Sep 2, 2005

thats excellent... look at the mooment lik ehe's setting up for an interview.

Saw previously what looked like a convoy into the convention center.

{requires real player, btw}

dcheather · Sep 2, 2005

some more good news: http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N02376480.htm

I still haven't heard anything from my Coast Guard friends working out of Pascagoula, but I'm sure they're safe.

pettyfog · Sep 2, 2005

Remember the 'first bus' to arrive at the astrodome? It was turned away because it couldnt possibly have been part of the convoy... and it was in fact 'stolen'.

But the kid who was responsible should get a medal and not only that.. a scholarship!

Story

JohnnyCash · Sep 9, 2005

pettyfog said:

Onward and upward...I will put up some quotes in a few weeks or so and ask again, who is the insenstive prick.
Click to expand...

umm...the prick who padded his resume (according to Time)

http://www.cfra.com/headlines/index.asp?cat=2&nid=31773

dcheather · Sep 9, 2005

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?r109:S14FE5-0007:

The writing was on the wall that FEMA is too befuddled by bureaucratic nonsense and lost it's focus once place under DHS--I had serious misgivings about creating a super department, composed of cabinet level deparments, this disaster proves some things are better smaller and more precise. Here are some key qoutes from the link (this Sen. Nelson of Florida speaking about FEMA just before the Senate confirmed Chertoff to lead DHS):

FEMA, which will be under the leadership of the new Secretary, once confirmed, responded and did an admirable job to begin with. But since then, we have had some problems. You heard me speak about them almost ad infinitum over the course of the session in September and October, and then again when we came back after the election in our special session. Congress stepped up and appropriated $13.6 billion in emergency funding for that natural disaster series. I thank our colleagues for moving so quickly to address the needs of the people in Florida especially but the other States that were affected as well.
I applaud the quick response, the coordination of the relief agencies, including FEMA, in the immediate aftermath of those four storms. In Congress we specifically directed that $8.5 billion of that money was going straight to FEMA to help hurricane victims.
Well, I wish I could report that things are going smoothly. I cannot. I spoke with Judge Chertoff about these issues. I also spoke with FEMA Director Mike Brown in a meeting with other members of the Florida delegation.
Boiled down, we have two big issues: The very slow, if any, reimbursement for debris removal off of private rights of way; and then a second issue, that money was being poured into areas that did not have hurricane velocity winds, while for the places that got hit the hardest, it is so very difficult for them to get the funds they need, and now those counties and cities are having to pay themselves without FEMA reimbursement.
I hear on a daily basis from communities across our State that are having problems getting reimbursed for debris removal. Some of these counties and cities have even had to borrow money to go out and pay their bills while they are waiting for FEMA reimbursement.
I will give you an example. Lake County, to the northwest of Orlando, submitted a $17 million bill for reimbursement months ago. Do you know how much they have received thus far? Three thousand dollars. There is no excuse for that. Plus, these counties that are begging, pleading, guess who they are coming to. They are coming to their handy-dandy Senator. They are begging and pleading for consistent information.
I will give you an example. Santa Rosa County reports they submitted a request for $27 million in October. They have seen no reimbursement, and they are receiving mixed signals from FEMA as to what further information they may have to submit in order to get their application finally processed.
I will give you another example: Charlotte County. Charlotte County is down on the southwest coast of Florida. It is where the first monster hit. Charley hit with full force, with winds of 145 miles an hour, right off the
water. It came right off the Gulf of Mexico, up Charlotte Bay, and hit Punta Gorda in Charlotte County. The county officials have stated that one day a FEMA official will declare some piles of debris eligible for reimbursement and the next day a different inspector will look at it and declare it is ineligible for reimbursement. This has to stop.
I will give you another example. Escambia County has received some relief but Pensacola, which is the main city in Escambia County, has not. This has to stop.
I will give you another example. Escambia County has received some relief but Pensacola, which is the main city in Escambia County, has not. This is not how FEMA should be deciding to distribute our tax dollars. Then there is the other major issue of the distribution of FEMA dollars to those counties that did not have hurricane force winds. FEMA paid out $29 million--and just last week FEMA Director Brown defended it--to Miami-Dade County, where the highest winds were 54 miles an hour. Hurricane velocity winds do not start until you get to 74 miles an hour.
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I'm trying to find Michael Brown's confirmation hearing...not only could he be fired for incompetence, but if he lied under oath...he could face prison.

JohnnyCash · Sep 9, 2005

Welp..."Brownie" is getting sent home and VADM Allen will be taking over for him in the Gulf.

JohnnyCash · Sep 12, 2005

well he's gone for good now

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9315184/

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