This is whats wrong with football in the US

Discussion in 'Prem talk, Those Other Leagues, and International' started by FFC24, May 27, 2008.

  1. FFC24

    FFC24 New Member

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    Over the weekedn I was watching Italy vs the US and they talked about Brek Shea. Dunseth said that many think he could be a damn good attacking LB. Of course, this is total shit, but that's not the problem. The problem is that instead of improving his forward skills, US coaches would rather see him play LB because he "might" make it there an dbe quite good. This, my friends, is the problem with football in the US. USA devolops some really good attacking talent and instead of coaches going for players strengths, they'd rather see them track back and defend. The US will NEVER get anywhere with this philosophy of defend first, attack 2nd. You know why Adu took so long to develop? It wasn't because he's rubbish, it's because Nowak decided that he should teach him how to defend and track back. WHO GIVES A SHIT IF ADU TRACKS BACK AND DEFENDS? That's not his strength AND NEVER WILL BE. In Europe he would've already been a star as they would've worked on his attacking game. Until the US gets rid of these idiotic coaching practices, they'll never do anything in the World game.
     
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  2. HatterDon

    HatterDon Moderator

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    Well, said 24; this is the dichotomy of raw talent and "team coaching." Do you encourage people to concentrate on what they're gifted at or do you encourage them to try to fill the holes in their game

    I agree that we're woefully short of LB's in the USMNT, but fer krissakes, how many top flight American strikers can you name who have acheived any success? Now I know that 75-90% of EPL wing defenders started as wingers, but come on ... let's try to develop more than one great striker every 10 years.
     
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  3. FFC24

    FFC24 New Member

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    What's so sad about this is that Shea has CLEAR Peter Crouch type skills and American coaches think about defense. There are some players that are clearly made for defense even though they started out as a winger or d-mid, but Shea is not one of them and Convey wasn't one of them either. Quavas Kirk is made for defense, but how many damn wing-backs do we need?
     
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  4. timmyg

    timmyg Well-Known Member

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    what i found to be the problem with soccer, and sports in general, in this country was that the coaches are total, uhm, jerks...

    thats why i picked up ultimate. no coaches!
     
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  5. FFCinPCB

    FFCinPCB New Member

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    so true, timmy. soccer in particular seems to attract these types. which is why I don't work with them unless I have to.
     
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  6. timmyg

    timmyg Well-Known Member

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    rats, are you a coach or a ref? oh boy...
     
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  7. andypalmer

    andypalmer Active Member

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    My son has spent the evenings this week attending tryouts for a U10 travel team. In chatting with some of the coaches and watching the tryouts, the following points were glaring:
    1) all they care about is speed, agressiveness, and foot skills
    2) they want all the kids to be able to play all positions, even if they're a natural at something they love
    3) they don't teach, and in most cases, don't understand the theory of soccer: understanding the flow of the game, understanding when to hold the ball and when to pass it, situational field positioning, and movement off the ball, etc.

    I've tried to teach my son some of this stuff, but when he was avoiding the "big scrum in the middle" and instead either finding space for himself to receive a pass or covering an opposing player who had found space, he was told to "get involved in the game." Heck, when he was defending and kicking the ball out of bounds, he was told "stop just kicking it out, take the ball and dribble away from him."

    Sheesh! No wonder the MLS DPs complain about our player's lack of tactical understanding.
     
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  8. BarryP

    BarryP New Member

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    Andy I found your post very thought provoking and wanted to put my two cents worth in. I have no doubt that you understand the game better than I do but some of your comments and some of your perceptions about the U10 tryouts are in my opinion problems within US youth soccer programs that extend upwards into our men’s national team program.

    Unfortunately soccer IQ and creativity are far to often overlooked attributes in youth soccer.

    While kids will gravitate toward certain positions teaching them to play every position at a young age is a theory that is not only sound it is essential if the US is ever going to produce well-rounded soccer players. Teaching a child how to play each position is the first step in teaching them to link-up passes and where to expect support to come from. Once a child gets old enough to understand free-flowing tactics like overlapping and exchanging positions they will never just be playing one position anyway. As they grow older there will be plenty of time to specialize in a position.

    I am sighing as I type this but the teaching of tactics in youth soccer is way over-rated. I know I hear the "he's insane" comments already but please read this before judging the above comment. Why is it in every other sport in the US we teach kids skill sets before tactics but in soccer we have to start out worrying about spacing and keeping the field balanced? In basketball we teach kids dribbling, shooting and beating your defender 1 v 1 before we worry about the nuances of the backdoor cut. In baseball we concentrate on throwing, hitting and catching and don't begin with turning a double play or when to recognize a hit and run situation. I think very slowly in this country we are beginning to recognize the most important basic skills a soccer player can master are dribbling, shooting and beating the defender(s) in front of you.

    I would be willing to bet that if you took 22 young kids with identical soccer talent and IQ and taught 11 to play the game tactically correct and concentrated on teaching the other 11 to master their ball skills the following would happen:

    1. The 11 taught to balance the field would win games at a younger age but as they grow older would turn into the US men's national team and have little confidence on the ball with not a spark of creativity for the attacking game.

    2. The 11 taught to master their ball skills would lose more games than they would win as youngsters because of the inevitable mistakes they would make; however, as they grow older they would turn into the Brazilian national team where every player has the confidence to keep the ball at their feet.

    Don't get me wrong I understand the importance of spacing and passing but lets be honest, if you can't beat one defender in soccer then getting you the ball in open space isn't going to help once a defender closes you down. Until we teach skill sets first and tactics second we teaching future mediocrity.

    I coach youth rec soccer and "Kick it out!" has become my number one cringe phrase. Have I used it? Guilty as charged but I am trying to unlearn the phrase. I understand the tactical soundness of kicking the ball out and regrouping but I have asked myself what am I saying to a kid, a young kid in particular, when I tell them to kick the ball out? This is what I came up with:

    1. Please do not use your creative mind to come up with a way around the defender in front of you.
    2. Please do not take a risk.
    3. You don't possess the skills needed to beat your competition.
    4. You’re not good enough.

    I realize that these are just my opinions and are no more valid than anyone else’s but someone needs to ask youth coaches if we are teaching skills, self-belief and creativity or if are we sacrificing those attributes for the quick win today.

    P.s. If you are really bored and want to hear it I will post my experiment with my daughters U7 rec team last season because it was interesting. Possibly not relevant but interesting.
     
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  9. andypalmer

    andypalmer Active Member

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    BarryP. Good post. I have a few counter points:

    In baseball, at a young age, the kids are taught which base to throw to in what sitatuations (outs, men on base, etc); I don't see the equivilant being done in soccer.

    You can practice foot skills on your own; you can only learn the tactical side at practice - so why is the latter ignored?

    Brazil has the most technically adept players in the world, but they don't always win. Why? Other teams are better tactically, even though they're inferior technically.

    If we're doing it so "right", why all the complaints about our players lack of tactical knowledge?

    Most importantly, they're teaching the tactical side in England at this age. Based upon the results, which country do you think is doing it right?
     
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  10. EricD

    EricD New Member

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    Interesting thread. It seemed as though we are having persistent tactical problems as our young players are getting older too. A perfect example was the Toulon tournament. Granted they did not have a real opportunity to play together, but it was not a pretty thing to watch. I enjoyed watching the other teams (like Italy) play against the US because it looked like a clinic in terms of touch and movement (with and without the ball). Although, I was a little happier to see that the US played a better second half than the first in the Italy game.
     
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  11. BarryP

    BarryP New Member

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    To be fair Andy I am going to admit that I should not have said the teaching of tactics is "over-rated" I should have said the teaching of tactics is "over-emphasized". That was a poor word choice on my part. However, I am going to answer your questions as you wrote them because I think they are all great questions that somebody should be asking.


    What I see is the opposite end of the spectrum. To often in the US we resort to teaching the best athletes (ie the fastest, biggest, strongest) to play tactically because it is the quickest way to a win in youth sports. My problem with youth soccer is players are not being taught to play skillfully and creatively within the framework of tactics. In the end I am afraid we coach all of the creative flair out of children by over coaching tactics and under coaching skills and thinking outside of the box.


    First, encouraging kids to come up with creative solutions to in-game situations is not the same as practicing a step-over.

    Second, it is a commonly accepted fact among physicians that a child’s ability to learn new body movements and motor skills decreases as they get older while their ability to learn a new mental process increases.

    From Wikipedia - Below is a list of the 11 teams that have played in a World Cup final. Brazil and Germany each finished as either winners or runners-up seven times.

    Team Titles Runners-up
    Brazil 5 (1958, 1962, 1970, 1994, 2002) 2 (1950*, 1998)
    Italy 4 (1934*, 1938, 1982, 2006) 2 (1970, 1994)
    Germany 3 (1954, 1974*, 1990) 4 (1966, 1982, 1986, 2002)
    Argentina 2 (1978*, 1986) 2 (1930, 1990)
    Uruguay 2 (1930*, 1950) -
    France 1 (1998*) 1 (2006)
    England 1 (1966*) -
    Netherlands 2 (1974, 1978)
    Czechoslovakia# 2 (1934, 1962)
    Hungary 2 (1938, 1954)
    Sweden 1 (1958*)

    Which of these world powers in football is vastly inferior to Brazil in basic soccer skills?

    The biggest complaint I here about US players is in their technical abilities and not their understanding of the game.

    From the US-England game the biggest difference I saw between the two sides was first touch, ball control and accurate passing but again that is just my opinion.

    My son has had two coaches from England now and in speaking with both they have said that kids in the the same age groups from England are vastly technically superior to those in the US.
     
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  12. BarryP

    BarryP New Member

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    One thing I did not state that I should is I consider a players ability to read the game to be an acquired skill and not a component of in-game tactics.

    This is an interesting article that I based a lot of my youth coaching philosophy off of:

    http://www.indianayouthsoccer.org/Asset ... opment.pdf
     
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  13. andypalmer

    andypalmer Active Member

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    BarryP. OK - I consider being able to read the game to be PART of tactics (i.e., "everything" in soccer is either technical or tactical, so that fits in the latter) and reading the game can be taught (but isn't in the USA).

    Or, to put it another way, we focus on the physical part of the game, without sufficient focus on the mental/thinking parts of the game.
     
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  14. EricD

    EricD New Member

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    Comments on Brek Shea
    I liked the way he was attacking in the Italy game, he was hustling and going for headers. He had a decent touch, etc... I too cringed when Dunseth said he would be put back to LB. I basically took that as Dunseth is a defender, so he would like to see Shea there.

    Based on his effort against Italy, we could have used him against England.
     
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