Man, we f**ked up!

Discussion in 'Miscellaneous' started by WonsanUnited, Apr 11, 2007.

  1. WonsanUnited

    WonsanUnited New Member

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    Sep 23, 2006
    Man, we f**ked up! I just finished reading All The Shah's Man, and did you know that the US and Britain overthrew a democratically elected government in Iran back in 1953? Why? Because they were supposedly going to become communist. But even guys in the CIA admitted they exaggerated the threat of a communist Iran and in the end it was just to please Britain who had just lost a $h1tload of money after one of their oil companies was thrown out of Iran. On top of that we've been supporting Saudi Arabia since WWI! The British put the House of Saud into power and US oil companies cemented their power! Man, we've really f**ked up the Middle East!
     
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  2. nevzter

    nevzter Well-Known Member

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    Good read, and despite the atrocious acts commited by the U.S. and Britain to depose a democratically elected official (nice for you to show up too, Vietnam), these acts cannot be viewed in a vaccum - while oil definitely played a part, the cold war ultimately bred this situation.

    Mossadegh was the people's hero and this coup is still referenced to this day by Iranian leaders as evidence of British/U.S. usurping nature, particularly with regard to oil.
     
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  3. FFCinPCB

    FFCinPCB New Member

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    Thread hijack warning! (But not completely unrelated.)

    Watched The Constant Gardener last night.

    Good movie, although it made me a little nauseous. Rent it (or buy it).
     
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  4. WonsanUnited

    WonsanUnited New Member

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    Sep 23, 2006
    I think Mossadegh shouldn't have been overthrown seeing how he loved the US and it was Britian's imperialist mindset that screwed this all up. Britain was living in the past. But when you look at places such as Chile, Guatemala, and the Congo, I guess it was neccesary.
     
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  5. pettyfog

    pettyfog Well-Known Member

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    It's easy to look back and point out diplomatic screw-ups. And I dont have the references right now, but I seem to recall that Mossadegh was not exactly pure as the driven snow.
    But the same should be done in retrospect to all other such 'interventions'.

    It's fair to say that Chile is a good example of that. Despite all the chest puffing outrage about Allende and Pinochet, look at the WHOLE of the situation as it unfolded and look at Chile now.
     
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  6. HatterDon

    HatterDon Moderator

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    Holy parallel history, batshit! You crack me down, 'fog. Yep, it sure is hard to provide hard-n-fast proof that Chile wouldn't be better off if we hadn't murdered their freely elected leader and bankrolled the first military dictatorship in their history.

    But I digress ... Mossadegh was okay. In an effort to get done what eventually was done, the Shah's boys convinced London and Washington that Mossadegh wanted to nationalize Iran's oil to the detriment of the West. It was BS, but it was the sort of thing we REALLY wanted to hear. So, as when we were faced with other freely-elected regimes that were unpredictable, we came down on the side of corrupt and easily to manipulate monarchies or military dictatorships [can you say Chile? Guatemala? Nicaragua? Vietnam?].

    In the immortal lyrics of Tom Lehrer: "They've got to be protected / all their rights protected / 'til somebody WE LIKE can get elected."

    This, as well as Nixon turning Vietnam into the player to be named later in his trade with China, is why nobody believes ANY American president when he says that we want to promote democracy around the world. The usual response is: "Oh yeah? Starting when?"

    An interesting side note about the fear of nationalization ... in the 60s somebody figured out that letting oil nations nationalize and then coalesce into a cartel could keep prices [and therefore profits] much higher than if they were fractured and externally controlled. Big Oil created OPEC, and has gotten richer by the week.
     
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  7. pettyfog

    pettyfog Well-Known Member

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    Nice revisionism, Don...

    Suggest it's how Chileans -as a WHOLE, not just those who agree with you- see it.

    I shed no tears for Pinochet. But I certainly DONT for Allende... who given his head would have just done what Chavez is doing now.

    Of course, that's just sad reality, which can be ignored at your leisure.
     
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  8. HatterDon

    HatterDon Moderator

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    And Chavez's horrible crime is ... ? Oh yeah, I remember; saying that the president is a buffoon.

    You're right; better to have filled a democratically elected foreign leader with .223 slugs than run the risk that he might someday say something that could embarrass an American president who's a Republican.

    There's no revisionism in my post, either. If you studied the Middle East a tenth as much as you rant about it, you'd know that to be true.
     
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  9. FFC24

    FFC24 New Member

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    Jan 6, 2005
    I suggest you lot read Overthrow as it shows a whole history of screw-ups and is by the same author. This book tells every story of our willingness to overthorw governments who will not be our bitch and was willing to become communist or nationalise companies. We will never learn from past mistakes and both parties are to blame for this kind of thing. Kennedy could of just left South Vietnam before the war, but decided not to and we could of supported Abdul Haq, but instead let our money go to Pakistan and then they would ship our money to Afghanistan during the Soviet-Afghanistan war. We will always make these kind of mistakes and it could get worse if the Democratic party keeps going to the right in fear of looking weak on national security. What is surprising to me is that when we have a chance to overthrow a goverment for a good cause like in South africa and now Sudan we do not take action. Is it because Africa does not fit our interests? Why is it that we usually ignore Africa?
     
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  10. pettyfog

    pettyfog Well-Known Member

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    Allow me to suggest..{Says pf, putting the anti-hyperventialtion paper bag down}.. that basing your world view on single subject references... OR one book/viewpoint on the subject is dangerous not only to the mental health, but results in distortions that are not seen as that significant down the road of objective history.

    If ALL you are going to read are critiques on the role of the US in geo-politics, then your mind will no doubt be confused by wondering ".. in light of ALL that, why the hell are people trying to get here any way they can???!!!"

    Think of it in light of Brits and their attitudes toward the British Empire in its glory days. some obviously wish that British hegemony had never happened. But what they fail to address is what the world WOULD have been like if they had their wish!

    This is why I repeatedly bring up Chile/Allende/Pinochet...a lot of 'bad acts' in looking at the micro-issues, but a positive result in the end. World affairs are NOT so simple.

    One of the great conundrums of the current times, in my view, is that we expect our government to be perfect, while we reserve for ourselves and our peers the right to be foolish, though not being criticized for it.

    NO governemnt is perfect.. nor is any man..but that there somehow may be a perfect concensus view from the amalgam of the imperfect is beyond my ken. Perhaps YOU can explain it.
     
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  11. HatterDon

    HatterDon Moderator

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    I don't expect our government to be perfect. I also don't expect this president and his administration to admit to us AND TO THEMSELVES that they are NOT perfect. After all, part of the Neo-Con play book is that admitting you made a mistake is a sign of weak character, and never to apologize for anything.

    Hey, not quite the values that most of us were taught as children, but ... .
     
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  12. pettyfog

    pettyfog Well-Known Member

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    What a LOAD, Don. You cannot be serious! If there is even a HINT of Dubya saying the administration screwed up, the coyotes come in for the kill.

    For you to think that Dubya admitting ANYTHING would make the Dems feel all better and and work with him is amazingly freaking OBTUSE!

    It's happened in the past, in the press room... every freakin susequent question is 'How, what, what others...'

    Amazing! Try thinking on the side of the brain with the thinner skull!
     
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  13. Spencer

    Spencer Active Member

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    Jul 1, 2005
    If Chile is the best example of a positive US intervention story then I think your argument is in some trouble.

    The same reason they're trying to get to the UK, France, Germany, Canada any way they can.

    Economic opportunity, a better place to raise their children, a better way of life.

    Your implying that the United States attracts immigrants from around the globe becuase of its history of military interventions and forgien policy. That’s a reach the boys on Fox News could be proud of.
     
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  14. nevzter

    nevzter Well-Known Member

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    I don't expect perfection in a goverment, nor do I expect honesty either. To expect the former or latter, or both, is simply naive. Humans are fallible, thus governments will always be fallible. Also, lies will be told, disinformation spread, in order to keep the ruling party in power and continue its hegemony. This is a fact of government. For example, the number one goal of an official elected to Congress is not to pursue the agenda / platform that caused a victorious election, instead, it is to be re-elected.

    However, I do expect transparency in government so as to expose dishonesty and I demand accountability for decisions and actions.

    To suggest that an administration official cannot admit a mistake because to do so would permit opposing parties/ viewpoints the opportunity to institute a political attack is to state the obvious. However, to insulate any elected official from the 'how, what, when' questions that follow an admission or uncovering of a failed policy or wrong choice is a disservice to our political system and the entire country the official represents.
     
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  15. FFC24

    FFC24 New Member

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    Jan 6, 2005
    I did not read this book alone, but many books about similar subjects. Also this book fails to point out many other failures by our government. I do not expect a perfect goverment, but a goverment that is half decent and the U.S. government isn't even that. We go into any country we wish and destroy their politcal system,we base are home policies on religion most of the time and above all else we do not even have candidates that will stand up for what they believe in because of Falwell and the like. I do not believe in our current system and really do not know why people would want to come here other than the fact that the American dream is sold throughout the world and when they come here they are usually dissappointed. We should expect more than what we get, but the problem is not everybody cares about what we do and would rather read about how Britany Spears has totally screwed up her life. When the elections do come people usually vote on how they like the person instead of listening to their policies. I do not blame the U.S. government entirely, but really blame the people of this country.
     
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  16. pettyfog

    pettyfog Well-Known Member

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    I really feel sorry for you. You are totally indoctrinated to the point where 'be the best you can be' isnt near enough.
     
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  17. pettyfog

    pettyfog Well-Known Member

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    Jan 4, 2005
    At the end of a totally reasonable and thoughful reply:
    You missed the point.... it is up to the incumbent to state in whatever terms he wishes, how that particular mistake came about.

    What I was saying is that the hyenas then start on 'Well, what ELSE have you screwed up?!"

    If you wanted, I could go through a laundry list of stuff Dubya screwed up.

    But there's the catch. While I did that, you'd be thinking "Well! If pf admits THAT.. then I wonder if I can get him to affirm my OTHER biases."

    In other words, as long as you dont bother thinking in the big picture.. which I allude to over and over ...and only seek to feel good in what you THINK you know, you aint gonna learn a damn thing. And neither will I because you will have no cred with me.

    So why should I bother?
     
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  18. FFC24

    FFC24 New Member

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    Jan 6, 2005
    I know what I say is true because I happen to live in a city that has many many immigrants and some of my friends are from Mexico or their parents are. They get here and then it takes them many years to get on their feet. Then when they get on their feet people look at them differently because they can only speak a little of our language and often criticise them. They get attacked for living in a small apartment with more people that should be in the apartment, but when you can only get minimum wage jobs then what should we expect? I have met people who love this country though, but alot of the people I have met would like to go back to Mexico or wherever.

    I do not care about the far-left sites as I read books with actual meaning. I do not let anybody tell me what to think and think for myself and from what I see we have screwed up alot in this world starting with the middle east. Screw your daily kos comment as I have never even visited that site before.
     
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  19. pettyfog

    pettyfog Well-Known Member

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    Jan 4, 2005
    Just totally A_M_A_Z_I_N_G!!!!!!

    I withdraw any implication about your politics!

    Instead, I will sympathize with you because no one bothered to teach you to think critically.
     
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  20. FFC24

    FFC24 New Member

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    Jan 6, 2005

    Think critically? It's obvious to me that you follow whatever your right wing sites tell you to follow. Also you are not the only person to tell me that my politics are extreme and dumb. I do not really care what you think. I think for myself and I usually use experiences to define my politics. I do not think this is the best country in the world or the most free. If you would like to debate on camera I would be more than willing to as I am and sound much smarter when I am off the damn computer.
     
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