RE: Re: RE: Abstinence based education Sex education will happen in school. It is part of public health initiatives supported by the government, people we elect and who provide funds to such programs. The question remains what is the most effective way to deliver this information. My friend worked on a public health study at Emory University dealing with the effectiveness of Abstinence Based Education and found that, while actual vaginal intercourse may be delayed, students were doing other things to maintain their "virginity." In certain communities, there was an uptick in cases of HPV. Is this a direct result in the lack of safe sex education in the schools? Not entirely, but if the information is not there, how can people make educated decisions? Our school has an abstinence based program. If you read the materials given to the students, you realize how grossly misinformed they are. Not only that, but there is an element of guilt and fear stressed in these materials. I had a student, fifteen year old girl, who asked me questions out of this book. She asked me my opinion of the emotional consequences of teen sex (these questions were asked after reading a short "true story" of a girl who felt pressured into sex by her boyfriend, then she became pregnant and was filled with remorse, shame, and guilt). I had a difficult time answering these questions because the girl's mother had her at sixteen. What message do you think this girl was receiving? There are other issues not addressed in these programs, such as teens who are questioning their sexual orientation. If students are told in the classroom that sex outside of marriage is shameful, dangerous and wrong and safe sex isn't really safe, think of the message this brings to our LGBT students. Human sexuality is complex and the "one-size-fits-all" approach just does not work. A comprehensive sex education is absolutely needed in the classroom...and a comprehensive sex education with an emphasis on abstinence is not an impossibility. Abstinence based education ignores serious health issues and does not adequately support its assertion that abstaining leads to a healthier sex life. You can't have a healthy view of sexuality and focus on shame and guilt. BTW- andyns...I do like your paper. I had only one criticism in the way of support, but you mentioned that it wasn't supposed to be researched, so I'll shut my piehole
Fog; I don't know where you got that quote, but it wasn't from me. Seeing as how the quote is unattributed and it appears in a post beginning with "Don ..." it's a little like verbal photoshopping. Not for the first time, appropriate attribution, please sir.
RE: Re: RE: Abstinence based education well, Terri... sorry that you didnt have time to read our responses.
RE: Re: RE: Abstinence based education Fog. Some interesting comments... I have no problem with STDs being about in Health class. i.e., "these are diseases usually contracted through sexual contact and the following methods can reduce chances of infection". Heck, I can't descibe them much more than naming the major ones. I completely disagree on the role and effectiveness of church in the issue. If done right, church can be an effective aid in the subject. For example, in my church, the church dances are only open to ages 14-18 and have dress code requirements (primarily addressing modesty). Our church teaches that you don't date until you're 16. There are many organized activities (at least weekly) for the teenagers that allows them to interact regularly with others with the same moral standards that they have; keeping kids away from situations in which sex can occur is a significant element of abstinance effectiveness, and includes helping to teach teens to recognize "dangerous" situations. i.e., "A back rub in the front room leads to a front rub in the back room." I'm not familiar with the Onon reference, but we use the Jesus quote a lot - it has to do with "the thought precedes the action" - if as a guy, you don't focus on how scantily clad the girl is, you're less likely to have "naughty" thoughts about her; but conversely, if you spend your time thinking about sexual activity, you are far more likely to do them.
RE: Re: RE: Abstinence based education Terri. I agree that abstinance programs that focus on shame and guilt are neither effective nor constructive; a good abstinance program focuses on the positives of waiting, not the negatives of not. (it also focuses less on vaginal virginity and more on where the overall "boundaries" should be)
Re: RE: Abstinence based education By no means was I trying to demean, Andyns. The tone of the article, to me, seems a little juvenile and simplistic, and perhaps that is because that is the subject of the paper. I honestly think your best feedback on this paper would be from high school or even middle school kids. Most of the people on this board are too old to provide a point of view that is as relevant.
RE: Re: RE: Abstinence based education P'fog- Yeah- You all type much faster than I do! BTW- I am out sick today, so please do not think I am sitting on the forum while my students are all hanging from the rafters . Well...they may be hanging from the rafters, but I am not in the classroom to stop them !
RE: Re: RE: Abstinence based education Well, Dang it... Don: I missed putting in that separator, AGAIN.. the quote was from the prev Andyns post. And Not directed at you. - - -- - - AndyP: I didnt DISCOUNT the role of the church. I only pointed out that the particular applications may differ, even within the given congregation. It all depends on how those verses are taught in Sunday School and from the pulpit as to the healthy understanding comes about.. that is to NOT lean over-much on 'Guilt and Shame' but WHY there's counseling not to. On Onan: I have to say that when I was pre-teen, yet able to understand the bible in context, I read that chapter very carefully and it really WAS a load off! Can you post the two verses preceding Jesus' adultery admonition? Here we come to 'shame and guilt': "DONT THINK ABOUT SEX!" except that Jesus actually pointed out that it was impossible to not think about sex... it was what you did after that... ie; "Oy Vey! A little shame and humility won't hurt!" For the rest of you.. the context is that Jesus was preaching on Salvation and the pious attitudes of some that, if you followed all the commandments, then you would be rewarded with Heaven in the afterlife. This is where the 'Faith vs Works' discussion comes in. Following the 'Law' of the tablets is 'works'. The idea was to blow up that argument, he used adultery as the example for good reason. One might have dark thoughts about killing someone, stealing or even coveting what someone else had, but be haughty because he never ACTUALLY did the foul deed. NONE of those guys could reasonably claim he never had thoughts of screwing a woman not his wife! Thus saying 'the thought is the same as the deed', pointed out the hypocrisy. And it actually did away with guilt and denial over failure: The admonition is to actually FOLLOW the law, but if one tripped up occasionally and asked forgiveness in all humility, {confession of sins} then he need not despair of hellfire. As to the 'back-rub leads to front-rub'.. that's a good one. I think it's relatively healthy, too. But like some-one said... rebuilding a carburetor makes a teen guy think about sex.
RE: Re: RE: Abstinence based education re: Onan. OK - I remember it now; I never read it as a specific anti-masturbation scripture, but more of a disobedience scripture. 26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. 27 ¶ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. Yeah - not seeing the shame and humility aspect, there. Also, it doesn't say "don't think about sex" it says "don't think about a woman who is not your wife in a lustful/sexual way." i.e., there is nothing wrong with thinking about sex in general (I can't wait until I get married and can do it) or about your wife (I can't wait till the kids go to bed...).
RE: Re: RE: Abstinence based education I keep forgetting it's NOT immediately ahead of the admonition. The verse on tithing expounds on the haughtiness in works idea, as well. Some would claim to be pious but do nothing for his neighbor in need.
RE: Re: RE: Abstinence based education 'fog, the idea that this wasn't a political discussion until Don't post is absurd. Save for a few early posts that were actually directed to the wording, structure and other stylistic points of the original essay, this is ALL political.
RE: Re: RE: Abstinence based education jmh. I disagree. Until's Don's post, no one was discussing Conservative vs. Liberal, Republican vs. Democrat. People can have differing views on social and moral issue without it being a "political" discussion.
RE: Re: RE: Abstinence based education To make it clearer, perhaps.. this is a social more's issue. Views and hypocrisies extend to cover all classes and races, not to mention income strata, creed, color. We could get into politics to point fingers on how our current condition came to pass but it's irrelevent for the discussion.
RE: Re: RE: Abstinence based education OK, perhaps I misunderstood whet you meant by "not a political issue" then. It wasn't, precisely, in the sense that people weren't making it about left, right, Dem or Rep. Even so, I feel like because it's a discussion about what's appropriate/required/optional/mandatory/whatever word you like, for education in public schools in classes taught by government employees whose salaries are paid with taxpayer dollars, it automatically becomes a political matter. 'Fog, was the point you were trying to make more that it wasn't previously a "partisan" issue?
RE: Re: RE: Abstinence based education Well, yeah.. 'partisan' WOULD be a more accurate word. You are right that it's 'political' in the local sense. But the 'political ins and outs' are different based on the overall demographics. And, like I say, they dont necessarily queue along party lines... or any other lines
RE: Re: RE: Abstinence based education jmh. We weren't even delving into state vs. family, really. More about the pros and cons of teaching the subject in a public, non-parent involved, setting.
