Stand up or the game goes down the pan

Simon Jordan, Chairman of Crystal Palace makes alot of sense here. SCARY. -- From the Guardian

Stand up or the game goes down the pan


Simon Jordan
Sunday October 16, 2005
The Observer

Palace have the worst toilets in Britain, says a new survey. We're last out of 149 clubs, with no stars out of five. Quite an accolade. Personally, I don't like hanging around toilets, but yes, I'm feeling defensive about ours. Ninety per cent of Selhurst Park has decent facilities; the only genuinely basic area is the away end. But they're just bloody toilets. We don't have an attendant spraying aftershave in there, but they're usable.

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I'm always surprised by Selhurst's reputation. Where's worse? The boardroom at Withdean is a scout hut. And if you want to build a stadium out of pop rivets and MDF, go and look at the Den. At least 60 grounds should be in that list below us. So why do the media relish slagging off Selhurst so much? There's one big reason: the media facilities aren't that great. And why's that? Because the media have consistently had a go at me for the last five years, so I took their biscuits away.

I don't want to make light of Selhurst's lack of class in certain parts, but let's get some perspective. Even among the best grounds in this country, there isn't one that makes me jealous. The Stadium of Light is impressive, but sounds like a ghost town when it's half full. Newcastle is good too, but even Old Trafford overrates itself: structurally it's fantastic, inside it's just OK. No ground in the country can feel too smug right now.

Our problem at Selhurst is specific: I don't own the ground. Until I can either buy it from the owner Ron Noades or move us out to a new one, we're going to struggle to upgrade. Even without owning it I've still spent the best part of a million and a half in the last five years improving the place: £600,000 on a bar at the top of the Holmesdale stand, and major spending on all the lounges, reception areas and executive boxes. And yes, we've upgraded the toilets in question as far as we can - but the physical structure of the stand is poor: it needs major renovation, and why should we do that as tenants? Why throw any more of my money at someone else's property?

So I have a choice - buy and redevelop, or relocate. It's no secret there are difficulties between me and Ron. Five years ago he wanted £12m for Selhurst Park. The independent valuation came in at £6m, and I offered £10m. Ron turned it down and the relationship between us hasn't been great since. But at some stage I'd like to sit down and have the conversation again because, personalities aside, this is business.

We have to consider, though, what we can realistically turn Selhurst into. It doesn't lend itself to many secondary revenue options, which are so crucial to clubs these days, because of its location: I can't really see a Thornton Heath Hilton. So does it really make long-term economic sense?

Option two, relocation - despite my immense attachment to Selhurst as a fan - is my preference, but as a London club there's almost nowhere to go. It's no secret that we're keeping a keen watch on the future of the National Sports Centre, the place where this football club was formed 100 years ago by staff of the old Crystal Palace. Ken Livingstone is very supportive with sports development, and I'll be looking for an opportunity to talk to him. But this site, too, has its limits. I'm not going to look a gift horse in the mouth, but I'm trying to develop this club, and taking it from a 27,000 capacity to the current proposal - 25,000 with an athletics track - doesn't really do it for me. The residents around the NSC are also worried about their quality of life, which is understandable. But it's up for debate.

Whatever the future holds, though, wherever we're playing, however great our toilets become, we and all the other clubs aren't going to achieve anything in developing atmosphere and reclaiming the spirit of watching football unless we're able to reverse one thing: the ban on terraces.

This feels like stating the obvious - but in case the FA are reading, let's do it. Watching football is a passionate, emotional experience. I stand at Selhurst because I always have done: as a youngster I'd stand with my friends on the big, open Holmesdale terrace. Today, fans are standing in seated areas at grounds across Britain, contravening ground regulations by behaving totally naturally.

The Football Licensing Authority tell clubs to force fans to sit down, or face having sections of seating closed. It's bizarre that clubs should be financially punished. OK, if I was going on the Tannoy and demanding our fans stand up for 90 minutes then fine, charge me, take action against us. But if I'm trying to do the exact opposite - trying everything reasonable - what then? Stewards constantly ask fans to sit, and we've even tried writing to repeat offenders threatening to withdraw tickets - a ridiculous threat for a business to have to make to its customers: stop enjoying my product.

It's so unrealistic. If the away fans, over whom we have no jurisdiction, stand and scream abuse all match, are the FLA really expecting home fans to bite their lips, sit still and ignore it?

They need to explain two things: 1) How long is it all right to stand up for, under FLA guidelines? Which bean counter defines that? Should we have someone with a stopwatch telling us how long we're allotted for standing after a goal, or during a red card or a sustained attack? 2) Exactly what other measures do they suggest clubs take?

I'm lost for ideas. Maybe they'd like to install seat belts for away fans, with airline-style stewards making sure belts are on at all times. And shouldn't there be a campaign under FLA guidelines to ban the Mexican wave? It's our responsibility to adhere to the regulations that are in place, but what if they're unenforcable?

The only way to sort out this mess is to acknowledge that safe standing areas are not only realistic, but desirable. After a disaster as horrific as Hillsborough, lessons are learned, reassessed and learned again. It's 16 years since that day, since 96 fans went into a ground to stand up and cheer their team, and didn't come out again because of a series of gross, fatal mistakes. It was a sickening waste of life - an event no one in this country will ever forget. But in those 16 years, so much has changed, so much has progressed.

New evidence suggests the difference in safety between small, controlled, well-engineered standing zones and seating is negligible. Some studies suggest restrictive seating is actually more dangerous. And when people jump up out of their seats, you get more movement in the stadium structure than you do if people are consistently standing. Advances with the science behind safe standing zones and crowd dynamics are immense. It already works in Germany, and clubs, police and stewards understand their health and safety responsibilities like never before. With safe standing zones, capacities go up, standing prices are cheaper, and younger fans are drawn to the buzz.

It's simple. The secret of a good stadium isn't just toilets - and in the experience of our stadium staff, away fans tend to push where they like anyway - it's in using new technology to recover the lost qualities of the football watching experience.

The government need to read and assess the new research, to know that what they're enforcing via the FLA is a totally alien version of spectating. People - this paper included - have been saying football's going away from its roots with over-pricing and salaries and glamour and roasting. If there's a better way to win back some of what we loved about football in the past, I'd like to know what it is.

Now it's personal

The FA have charged me with 'improper conduct' - which makes me sound like a pervert - for my column about referees. They're likely to fine me whatever happens, so I might as well give them something to think about first. They say my criticism of Brian Curson 'went beyond what is considered to be fair comment, and was considered to be, under rule E3, derogatory and personal'. Personal? If I commented on his dress sense, his family, his sexuality, that's personal, but my column was about the professional job he tried to do. How do you pass 'fair comment' on an individual without being 'personal'?

I'll appeal against this charge, and I'll ask them exactly what they're trying to achieve by suppressing constructive, pragmatic views, by fining people for free speech. I'll also be telling them that I'll report their responses, and the full disciplinary panel proceedings, in my next column.

 

WOW! good for him.

That is an excellent and articulate broadside.

 

What he says about moving the ground/relocating the team is spot on for many clubs in or around Fulham's size, in London anyway. Well thought through.

Regarding standing/terracing. I want nothing more than for this to return and I think the game in general is missing it in England. Atmosphere's would improve tenfold. Fulham especially since we were the last top flight club to be allowed terracing. Really enjoyed Taylor's thoughts on it.

 

standing for too long is not good for you



I just wrote this because I'm trying to get my picture the right size

 

Would someone give a recap of what happened at Hillsborough?

 

In England there use to be standing areas, but they were fenced in to stop fans from throwing things or running onto the pitch. Before a Liverpool vs ? game (FA cup I think), Liverpool fans were trying to get into one of these areas. A crush (basically fans pushing in) was developing outside the turnstyles and the police said this worried them. They opened some exit gates to avoid the crush but did not control access adequately, if at all. Fans at the front were getting crushed against the fence but the entering fans did not know. In the end 96 fans died and hundreds others were injured.

 

The Hillsborough disaster occurred because of bad policing, lack of crowd control and other simply bad decisions by people which put fans in dangers way. Terracing was not the 'cause'.

The FA now puts a ban on people standing for long periods at matches and are getting what they want. People paying lots of money to sit there and shut up.

I don't mean to say that stadiums should be all standing but certain sections should be allowed to be and people can CHOOSE if they want to or not. GOD FORBID ENGLISH FOOTBALL FANS SHOULD BE GIVEN A CHOICE.

 

I am with Don on terracing and seating not being the issue with people not going to matches but rather the pricing. Whether in England or here in the States, the cost to go to most professional contests is just absurd. It drives me nuts to see all the corporate big whigs in their suits sitting at Bulls games or in NFL stadiums and such.

However, as Don pointed out, that is where the money is and that is the way things will continue to go. I will just stay at home and watch on TV.

 

HatterDon your explanation makes sense, but if clubs did bring back terraces I bet they could offer the tickets at much lower prices.

 

Actually, I dont have much of an opinion on this, I was just trying to get this picture of Bradley smaller. Can anyone help

 

I really doubt that. Regardless of whether people are sitting or standing they still need to make enough money to pay the player's high wages and all the other things that are needed to make a club run. I would guess they would charge the same prices for the tickets.

 

I agree w/ ClevelandMo. If the terracing greatly increased capacity, the price of tickets would come down because of supply and demand. If Fulham could suddenly fit 40,000 in the Cottage, there are not 40,000 people willing to pay big money to come to the games, so a bunch of tickets (in the terraces I'd guess) would have to be sold relatively cheaply.

I think that'd be true for the big clubs too. I don't think Arsenal can't sell 100,000 tickets at the prices they charge now, or ManU 150,000 tickets (especially if they lost two or three matches in a row).

I think for most clubs the greater number of tickets sold would compensate for the lower price. What would that price be? I don't know--maybe 1/2 of the current price (so it would not be really cheap).

 

Yeah, I can.

Your avatar is right at the de-facto width limit of 200 pixels.. which I set because of people insisting on complex/action pix. Pix like that cant easily be reduced further.
While I PREFER 100 pixel width limit, yours can neither be cropped or reduced to that.

Summary: keep it. Or else I have to forcibly reduce some other users' avatars.

 

As Jordan points out, prices would come down and now that I'm almost a year working for a Premier League Club, there is one major rule to making money: Putting bums in seats. Its not just the ticket revenue, but its the beer, food, etc.

Terracing would, cost effectively, increase capacity and lower prices in those particular sections thus greater revenues on match days. Just take a look at Germany for a great example of safe standing/terracing.

 

While the capacity might increase, you can be sure it will not increase that dramatically based on the aforementioned terracing problems of the past. Whether or not terracing was the actual reason for the Hillsborough disaster or the Heysel?? incident also involving Liverpool fans, is not really clear. But it can be said that most folks think terracing was a part of the problem.

Therefore, I am sure strict safety codes would be in order and they will not be selling tickets to and expanding a place like the Cottage to 40,000. Maybe 30.

 

Well the thing is that as the price has gone up so has the quality of the play, dramatically. If people wanted to sacrifice the higher quality of play and everything else that comes with the Premier League for a lower ticket price and the ability to stand and sing I'm sure they could go to Brentford or Leyton Orient or something. I know they could go to a DC or Redbull match and do it.

But they don't. They whine and moan about the quality of play and whatever else they can think of.

I agree with bringing back terraces though. It would pick up the atmosphere. Not sure what the effect on ticket prices would be.

 

Petty, I think that I got it down to a decent size. I reduced it in "my pictures" and then uploaded it again. It didnt work right away but then suddenly the smaller picture appeared. Tell me there is a bit of black magic to computers.

 

Fulham suffers from a lack of terracing more than most clubs. Whilst we were rotting in the lower divisions we still had Craven Cottage. Getting crowds of 5,000, next to a beautiful park, next to the River Thames with Terracing. Since I've lived here I've heard from fathers who refuse to go to Fulham as an all seater stadium.

I mean Tom, you know Nicky Gadd and some of his best friends, they grew up with Fulham and terracing and many of them just can't believe how the atmosphere as suffer since The Cottage become an all seater.

Our crowds would be 5,000+ more easily if terracing came into play. Trust me, at Fulham, it's talked about everyday on matchday.