Science can't explain 9/11

"We are unable to provide a full explanation of the total collapse. . . .”

http://www.freemarketnews.com/WorldNews.asp?nid=50345

Sure tis probably biased, but take a look at the letter itself.

http://www.911proof.com/NIST.pdf

You might notice a line in this letter where they claim to have interviewed over 500 firefighters and no one ever mentioned an explosion... FUNNY... you can find NYFD all over the web, even on loose change, not to mention video foottage of police running from WTC 7 yelling, they are going to bring it down.

Also note that ranking former employees have called for an independent investigation.

What about the 100k that was transferred to Mohammed Atta on September 10th, FROM THE HEAD of Pakistan intelligence, who coincidentally was in DC on the 11th meeting with high ranking officials, who werent Condolezza Rice. How about the fact that he retired after people started asking questions.

You see, I'm allowed to ask questions and doubt a poor report from the 9/11 comission. Even those on the comission said it was poor. More money went into Ken Starr investigating blowjobs, then over the most important thing EVER TO HAPPEN EVER!

It just seems too much like the Reichstag before the invasion of Poland (sp?). I wonder who set that fire? I wonder Why?

 

RE: Science can

Uh, fuk crine outloud!!!!!

If that's what you want to hear, then that's what they're saying!

Popular Mechanics explained it all

... the only EXPERTS the TROOFERS have are fringe guys... not real structural engineers.

I'm done on this... you are incorrigible.

 

RE: Science can

Popular Mechanics is more reliable than NIST?

You are an amazing man... always answering in bulk when you need to prove a point. Yet this time, you invite me to discuss this, then you run away putting a science magazine published by Hearst as your proof.

I'm cured, OBL did it, Popular Mechanics explained it all.

Please don't comment on any of my points then. Since your only response is to insult me.

 

RE: Science can

I have. I have over and over... but I'm reading a far more reputable source, The Department of Commerce.

My issue with the PM articles is simply one of exclusion, same as the 9/11 Report.

There are various Debunking Popular Mechanics articles by TONS of sources, independent, professional, etc. I bet none of you read them.

I'm not an idiot, I dont sit in my cubby making up conspiracy theories and loving them like a nerd loves sci fi, I actually read about as much as I can so that I dont seem like YES AND IDIOT.

But if you guys, sorry Don, only have the rebuttal of "OH, its in a magazine, the whole thing is debunked in ONE article, silly Troofers", than I'll just continue to bring it up until you doubt the offically story.

PM has a knack for bringing in the MOST ridiculous theories and never addresses the real ones.

ONE ARTICLE?? Wow.

For agruments sake: http://www.freedomisforeverybody.org/debunkPopMech.php

 

RE: Science can

Where the heell is it that is supported?

I dont care WHAT WHO gave Atta! What IS yourpoint?


That it's a funny coincidence or what!

Don, you're laff riot...

 

RE: Science can

I think Petty has dimensia, I dont even understand what he says anymore.

Second post in a row.

I'll address the one question (i think) you made:

I dont care WHAT WHO gave Atta! What IS yourpoint?

Right, because who financed this event and why is unimportant. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

Petty, in the future, I'll WHAT WHO I want, and HOW THEM all over the WHO WHAT until then.

 

RE: Science can

http://www.opednews.com/articles/genera ... epubli.htm

 

RE: Science can

Ah... GEEZ!

It just NEVER STOPS!!!!

Get this... I'm gonna say this ONE MORE TIME!

Count the architects and Engineers in that 'August List'.


NOW EXPLAIN how that conspiracy hasnt produced ONE Insider whistleblower. Given that Dubya cant even control what comes out of the State Department and intelligence agencies.

You have to answer THOSE questions.. and without using Bohemian Grove,Illuminati or Freemason references.

Or any connections to talk shows that reference Underground Submarine Bases in the Nevada Desert or anyone else that 'used to work on captured UFO's' in Area 51

Here's Pettyfog's Variant of Occam's Razor:

"Never ascribe conspiracy to that which can be explained by human nature; to wit: laziness and stupidity!"

And I want to add "Childish, Immature, Prankish" to that. Which you would realize if you read and thought about every word in that "Buffalo Grove" link.

Or if you've ever attended a meeting of Corporate High Level Managers.

 

Added: you know what... the more I think about it, the more I think that is ONE STUPID EFFING QUESTION!
Who says they werent.. and what is the record regarding response to hijackings, previously? Actually, even given the timeline and reaction times, I dont know how to explain the Shanksville Plane. It actually MIGHT have been shot down, but what difference would that have made? But I can give a damn good reason to let it be thought it was the passengers who did it.

I cant KNOW.. but I can guess. It goes down to timing and reaction time OR possibly that it was decided quickly that shooting the plane down might result in worse damage than letting it proceed.

And why, if they knew it, would they let Dubya look so confused and stupid.

Like whom? Everyone? How about 'Pettyfog's Occam's Razor'?

Why havent the conspiracy theorists explained why that figure isnt 'Billions' not millions, given that on any given day, speculation results in big trades, followed by trending speculation that results in 'Hundreds of Millions' on a whim.

I'm gonna go further and explain, ALSO, why certain 'types' werent at work that day. Anyone who's worked in a Manhattan corporate office knows that senior management hardly ever shows up at 9 in the morning.

I also wonder why Rick Rescorla isnt tied into the conspiracy. He's the one who was telling people, for years, that the WTC was gonna get hit again.

 

Hi 'Fog,

Want to thank you for the link to Cyril Rescorla's wikipedia blog. A damn good read for a very brave and interesting man.

 

I'm truly unsure why the person ASKING the question's credibility has anything to do with the persons ANSWERING the questions. Do I like Alex Jones? Not quite, I hate all sensationalists... but it doesnt make his questions any less viable.

I'd like to also state, that I continue to read up on this no matter what anyone says... I have an interest in goverment and history... and since who ever wrote this chapter of history that I happened to be living during got it wrong, I am THAT MUCH MORE interesting in some accuracy even if I have to sift through piles of stinking BS just to find a few answers that fit better in reality than those served to us.

Next, my position is simply this... the official story from the 9/11 commision is bunk and patchy at best. I know for sure that I sat here taking bits out of the book or discussing parts left out with good reason we'd be here all month.

I do have the luxury of hindsight, and in my view GW and all his cronies credibility takes a hit everyday, which again, IN MY VIEW, makes his explanations and accounts of that day less verse with each lie he gets caught in.

If I were investigating this as murder... and I'm no Colombo, I'd probably never have removed the certain officials from the "we're you involved" list.

Do I think Laziness and Incompetence has anything to do with this? Of course... the lower a possible conspiracy trickles, the less they know about whats going on.

For example: I'm a low level GS-9 analyst for the CIA, I get intelligence that says 9/11 is gonna happen 3 days before it does... I run the information up to my superiors... and I never see it again. When I ask my superiors... they say "I sent it up, its out of my hands" and I can't speak to the press because, well, I work for the CIA and I have a clearance to maintain.

Ok, I'd like to maintain, that there is a small group of arms and energy brokers that form a countryless "cabal" (i hate that word) that is worth billions of dollars? My proof? Well, the "cabal" themselves (a few) were outed during the IRAN CONTRA affair.... they sold weapons to the Iranians, while making a 200% profit, and took that money and invested in the Freedom fighters in Nicaragua... these people later were labeled terrorists by the US and the fact that they were funded by Americans was kept from the public. Don't buy it? See: video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3505348655137118430 This investigative report was made in 1987, and the really disturbing thing about it is how oddly 'present day' it seems... almost like it ISNT 20 years old.

I'm at work and this is a complex subject... but I'll try my best to answer some of pettys reply.

This is probably one of the least of the stupid questions on that petition... (i'll only defend the petition by saying any attempt to ask more probing questions are met with a "classified, can not answer response")

Its a simple "why did it now work" question and one that needs to be thoroughly scrutinized to best prevent a lapse in procedure next time, if there is one.

Sorry, I couldnt track this all the way back but, :
http://www.wanttoknow.info/020812ap

There is an AP article in that link that says:
"From Sept. 11 to June, NORAD scrambled jets or diverted combat air patrols 462 times, almost seven times as often as the 67 scrambles from September 2000 to June 2001, Martin said. "

The reason the response sucked is because of the number of war games that day and the ironic nature of the training...

I think shanksville is creepy and suspicious and I'll settle for it being shot down... I saw the crash site a millions times through picks, and in the very least, the WHOLE plane didnt crasth there.

Good point... none of us even know they exists.

He did look pretty dumb... but with his proven history has he ever looked any different? I just have an issue with a quote of his that says he saw the first plane hit on TV... when actually no one did until much later that day maybe even the day after.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUXglJU2w6U&feature=related

I have no clue WHO... I mean if you fired someone they are more likely to write a book : ) . But if you're defense is complete imcompetence then you'd want to spread the blame on everyone else and never admit it was directly your fault... I work in government, they go over this method in the orientation. Besides it was almost proven to work until Gonzo effed it up.

I'm only interested in the PUT options on the airlines stock and other affected companies... PUT options are rare in huge amounts and are very risky... its suspicious but no smoking gun.

Point taken... this is of no interest unless you can pinpoint key players from this group and ask them where they were... I made this observation in the past, but I coupled it with a meeting most of the CEO's had just previous to that day... I'll look for it again, but until I research it I dont want attach anything to it.

I must say after reading and seeing a few shows about this guy on TV, he doesnt seem like someone you want to have involved.... he seems like a guy of high character, if the troofers are right, no one fitting that description would be involved.

I no longer have to prove the Gov't's, including ours have histories of harming innocents to propetuate wars or interestes in wars. Even recent memory in Laos and Cuba proves that. Operation Northwoods from the 50's and 60's was truly spine chilling when I read about that.

I hate bringing this up again... but there are only three steel highrise office buildings that ever collapsed from fire, and they all happened that day. I think i linked to those months ago in a different thread.

Go ahead... let me have it.

 

And only two have ever had fully fueled airliners crash into them, while they had been built WITHOUT asbestos fireproofing... So?

And -AGAIN- TWO were explained by REAL ENGINEERS and Architects NOT ECONOMISTS and ADMINISTRATORS on the Popular Mechanics site. Not to mention ANY veteran fireman or blacksmith, could venture the direction of the truth.. {Which relates to the number, 450 deg F} as opposed to the Rosie O'Donnell view.

The THIRD (WTC-7) was explained, in theory, by architects.

I didnt read the whole thing, smokin... talk about ME!!!

 

I learned the fillibuster technique from you : )

How about the polar opposite of Rosie:

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/cont ... hinksbombs

The most decorated firefighter ever, who was expert in EXACTLY this scenario.

PopMech says this to the jet fuel:
FACT: Jet fuel burns at 800° to 1500°F, not hot enough to melt steel (2750°F). However, experts agree that for the towers to collapse, their steel frames didn't need to melt, they just had to lose some of their structural strength — and that required exposure to much less heat. "I have never seen melted steel in a building fire," says retired New York deputy fire chief Vincent Dunn, author of The Collapse Of Burning Buildings: A Guide To Fireground Safety. "But I've seen a lot of twisted, warped, bent and sagging steel. What happens is that the steel tries to expand at both ends, but when it can no longer expand, it sags and the surrounding concrete cracks."

"Steel loses about 50 percent of its strength at 1100°F," notes senior engineer Farid Alfawak-hiri of the American Institute of Steel Construction. "And at 1800° it is probably at less than 10 percent." NIST also believes that a great deal of the spray-on fireproofing insulation was likely knocked off the steel beams that were in the path of the crashing jets, leaving the metal more vulnerable to the heat.

But jet fuel wasn't the only thing burning, notes Forman Williams, a professor of engineering at the University of California, San Diego, and one of seven structural engineers and fire experts that PM consulted. He says that while the jet fuel was the catalyst for the WTC fires, the resulting inferno was intensified by the combustible material inside the buildings, including rugs, curtains, furniture and paper. NIST reports that pockets of fire hit 1832°F.

"The jet fuel was the ignition source," Williams tells PM. "It burned for maybe 10 minutes, and [the towers] were still standing in 10 minutes. It was the rest of the stuff burning afterward that was responsible for the heat transfer that eventually brought them down."

Let us mention fire code in a high rise building.... none of the desks, rugs could be fuel, its stringent in NYC to avoid exaclty this... I really dont think paper and rugs can get that hot.... otherwise I would suggest that we start making huge balls of paper filled, kerosene soaked, rugs and stockpiling them as the next napalm to use on our next emenys infastructure.

The link above at the top of this thread makes mention of the NIST fire expert himself calling for and independent investigation. I wonder why?

For every real engineer you produce, there are gaggles of architects, demolition guys, and engineers who refute the official story.

 

smokin' I have three intelligent brothers who believe the conspiracy stuff or at least dont believe the governments official story. As a result, I have spent way too much time looking at all the conspiracy sights and videos. What I have watched does not impress me because in every one: 1) quotes were taken out of context 2) pictures were cherry picked to prove something (i.e. other pictures of the same thing show a much different situation 3) videos were not shown in there entirety 4)deliberate deception is used 5) uneccesarily inflamatory words are used 6)the site or person has an obvious political leaning or agenda and this is used to convince others 7) just a lot of questions and accusations are made with no constructive attempt to understand the science or accusations or statements display ignorance of the science.

Furthermore, none of the scientific evidence or scientific opinion for a conspiracy is compeling to me. I am a metallurgist/materials engineer and I did failure analysis for NASA for several years. I was part of the team that investigated the Challenger disaster and I have done numerous aircraft failure investigations. The investigations of 911 dont appear suspicious and inadequate to me.

They only thing that has bothered me is the letter in your first post from the government. As a metallurgist/failure analyst, I am surprised that they did not recover steel from the towers that indicated high enough temperatures to weaken the steel had been attained. You dont need much steel you just need a piece that shows the strength had been compromised so I am surprised that they didnt keep looking until a piece was found. However, rather than say G W is responsible, I tend to admit that I dont know anything about fire investigations and their use of paint samples, which is what it appears the government relied on. Also there is the fact that they did find such metallurgical evidence in Bldg 7 collapse.

There is also the fact that you can see for your own eyes what happened to those buildings. You can see the planes hit them and the massive explosion that resulted. You could see beams in the towers bending and you could see the buildings swaying before they went down. That is what you expect to see before a building falls down. Even Matt Lauer could see that the second tower was about to come down.

With building 7 there are numerous recordings of firefighters saying the building "doesnt look right", "isnt stable", or "looks ascew". This is why so many newscasters reported that it was going to go down or in one case reported that it went down before it acually did. There are also pictures that show a huge hole and fire on the the side facing the towers. Of course the conspiracy literature doesnt address this. Nor do they show the entire video of Blg 7's collapse which shows that it did not collapse uniformly; the east side goes down well before the rest of the building.

Finally, a 911 conspiracy is just too large with too many people required to be involved for it to be possible. It takes weeks to plant explosives in a building. Also there were too many rescue workers, clean-up workers, investigators, scientists, and technicians involved to cover this up. [/b]

 

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/9 ... ed118.html

This just in... well its about a month old, but enjoy more of my lunacy:

What would this guy know? I mean Operation Gladio never existed either right?

RIGHT????!!!!

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/9 ... ed118.html

 

Smokin' you are a loon, you don't have a right to question our government. Everyone knows that Al Qaeda can force NORAD to stand down and buidings fall at free fall speed without having bombs in them. The United States government wouldn't hurt us and put thimerosal in most of our childern's vaccines, your just evil.

 

I read a transcript from a David Ray Griffen speech that claims that there were no passenger air phones on the flight that crashed in Pennsylvannia let alone the technology in place to make phone calls...

Yet cell phone calls were placed and victims called families from, YEP... passenger air phones.

I'll find a fact that will strike a chord eventually.

I'll even go an site this reference as I'm passionate about the Colombo type details... later... the gov't is watching me

Smokin' = Evil

MUAHAHAHAAHA

 

I read one of the books by Richard Clark, and it takes you inside the White House dealing with the 9/11 response. It was pretty interesting.