Why is he surprised? Or even overly annoyed? He's been in Europe HOW LONG? It goes with the freakin' territory. I'm gonna say again what I said on the offal... it isnt as easy as to just kicking clubs or leagues out of Fifa competition... we have to look at the BIG picture...... they are Serbs! They were put in a hermetically sealed anti-bigot jar for DECADES thus they are just catching up with the rest of society... still in the KKK mid-sixties. Do you guys start to see why I say 'Everything's connected' if you step back far enough? - - - -- - - - -- - - - - - -- - - - - - - - And WTF do I have to set my region every time I go to Soccernet? Havent they ever heard of cookies? Why, ANYWAY... too lazy to code for IP lookup?
But it shouldn't have to. And how could he not be annoyed and outraged? There's no place for that in football or anywhere else for that matter.
Re: RE: UEFA probes allegations of racist taunts at Beasley Expected does not make it any more acceptable or any less infuriating. I cannot imagine not being annoyed by insinuations that I was less than another being because of the color of my skin. Expecting a behavior and not being put off or disappointed when the behavior occurs are separate matters.
RE: Re: RE: UEFA probes allegations of racist taunts at Beas No but it DOES make it less worthy of outrage. just for you who dont get it... this is what happens when you enforce 'political correctness' by edict, statute or repressing speech. Just as the 'progressive' elements in our society try to do over and again.
RE: Re: RE: UEFA probes allegations of racist taunts at Beas Here's an example to consider: I'm the moderator of this forum. {You may address me as 'Sir'} It is my edict that this thread is not about 'football' so much as it is about cultural mores. Thus I am moving it to 'Anything Goes'
RE: Re: RE: UEFA probes allegations of racist taunts at Beas See? I moved it. It's my right, someone has to be boss or there will be chaos and we'll end up like the 'offal MB' and everything posted willy nilly, the worst of both worlds. BUT...unlike the balkans under Tito, you can call me anything you like or criticize me as much as you want. You can even point out that I'm a conservative, so 'what do I have in common with black people'. Or how do I know anything about what it's like to be black. Or even call me a fascist, racist bigot whitebread asshole. As long as you keep the language reasonable, that's your right. And I wont kick you off or delete the post. I wont censure you or put you in a hermetically sealed jar and leave you on the ACLU's front porch. {Always wanted to use that!} What would happen if I did that? You would be affronted, and claim your speech was denied. And your feelings on that would be [pun coming] 'kept bottled up' as far as this forum goes. But I wont do that... instead I will let you vent 'your version of the truth'. And ultimately make fun of you. That's how REAL free speech works.
RE: Re: RE: UEFA probes allegations of racist taunts at Beas And THAT is how those Serb assholes should be treated.
RE: Re: RE: UEFA probes allegations of racist taunts at Beas Uh, I'm not sure how this thread went this way. Never said I thought they should be kicked out of UEFA nor did I advocate the enforcement of any formal speech regulations. I just think it's despicable that a human being has to stand for being called a monkey while he's playing a ball game and I'm eager to see that garbage disappear.
RE: Re: RE: UEFA probes allegations of racist taunts at Beas Remember toward the end of the 04/05 season.. that happened to some player of reknown in England. He went over and confronted the fan directly. there were no fists thrown, or even epithets from the photos taken. The fan leaned forward with a smile on his face, they exchanged pleasantries and went on... Yet the writeup was all about the hate speech, rather than 'classless asshole remarks' which is really what it amounted to. I'll say it again... from the vantage point of once being a stupid clueless kid in the fifties. MOST of them use skin color as a convenient vehicle for taunts.
RE: Re: RE: UEFA probes allegations of racist taunts at Beas What is your definition of outrage? If you include in outrage an individual expressing an opinion against something that they find morally offensive then we will have to disagree about what is worthy of outrage. If you mean an individual or group trying to dictate to another individual or group how they must behave based on what they find offensive then we can agree. My point being that DMB has every right to be offended and outraged by the actions described in the article. To say he should not be offended because he should expect that type of behavior would be myopic.
RE: Re: RE: UEFA probes allegations of racist taunts at Beas Was going to post an opinion on the topic, but not sure how much further the thread will spin into obscurity...
RE: Re: RE: UEFA probes allegations of racist taunts at Beas Serbs are well known for this behaviour, but you'll find it all over Europe and the rest of the Europe. Over the winter I had a quick trip to the Netherlands and saw PSV-Arsenal champions league match. I arrived quite early and was walking around and saw the Arsenal bus arrived. About 100 fans were gathered to watch the players come off the bus and some started doing monkey chants at the black Arsenal players. And that didn't even make the papers.
RE: Re: RE: UEFA probes allegations of racist taunts at Beas I guess there are rednecks all over the world...
Racism must be confronted Racist taunts shouted by Montenegrans or Serbians (we seem to be discussing both) are neither forgivable nor purely attributable to living under a dictatorship for a number of years. Let's get real. Tito has been dead for 27 years. Most people in their 30's and younger have no memorary of his "dictatorship" (one of the most enlightened dictatorships of recent history, I might add, making crucial contributions to the fight against German facism as well as being one of the earliest satellite states to challenge Stalin's authority and think independently of the Soviet Bloc). If anything, its the lack of a principled, ethical leader in more recent times that has allowed the slav's baser instincts to come out. Serbs in particular, but also Slavs living in Montenegro, are some of the most virulently racist people I've every met. The three fingered salute, originally an acknolwedgement of the holy trinity, is now used as a Slav-supremacy salute much like the Nazi salute. Of course, some are lovely people, and there are some really progressive anti-racism non-profits doing great work in Serbia and Montenegro (now independent states) but the number if racists is high and increasingly vocal (as seen at recent football matches). The reality is that while unfettered free speech is a noble idea, many cultures have found it necessary to impose some reasonable restrictions on it in order to protect minorities in particular and the productivity of socierty in general. The Germans, in one notable example, have learned from their past and have strong hate speech laws on the books. Even the United States, which so many people cite as an example of a country that lives by the principle of free speech, does not allow it to be exercised in an unrestrained manner. Indeed, free speech is neither assumed nor protected in the private sphere in the U.S. (all corporations, private universities, clubs, etc.). Moreover, it is fettered in the public sphere in several ways, and the Supreme Court employs a complex balancing test to determine whether state and federal laws reasonably or unreasonably restrict free speech. Racism is evil but it is the most strangely seductive form of evil. It lets you yell one word and feel better about all your own short-comings, your own failings, your own lack of education. And it does so by necessarily harming others, which, in itself, is wrong both from an ethical standpoint and from a religious-moral standpoint. Racism does not go away on its own, by being ignored, or by being treated with kid gloves and compassion. Racism must be confronted, met with force if necessary. Sure, education is the long term answer, but the short term solution to protecting minorities from physical and psycological harm is to prosecure, fine, deduct points, whatever, from offenders. Sometimes sanctions are necessary to correct bad behavior. Remember, the United Kingdom blocked international trade with the US when we refused to disengage from the trans-atlantic slave trade. Let's please not forget who the victims are here (hint: not the slavs, at least not in this instance). This is not about political correctness. It's about what is right. Furthermore, this isn't rocket engineering. Racism is the perfect example of you know it when you smell it. Yelling "monkey" is an affirmative act on behalf of the racist (unlike, say, "unintentional" employment discrimination). There is no excuse. Football is the world's game; if you want to play with teh world, you have to respect it and all its people. Otherwise, FIFA is well within its rights to impose sanctions. Peace dogs.
RE: Racism must be confronted Wow, FFCBaltimore, wonderfully posed and supported. There's very little to argue with. Thanks very much for gracing the site with this much reasoned discourse.
RE: Racism must be confronted Wow... ahh... ummm... wha... Nope. I don't have anything to add. All valid points with much thought behind each issue. Well said FFCBaltimore.
