MLS Expansion?

Well I've converted to the Crew. Not many rivals, except for the Fire. But they suck too much nowadays.

 

MLS Expansion

How far should it go? where can support a MLS side? How big should it be? I hear rumours of Seattle, Vancouver, St Louis, Montreal, San Hose

Note: Merged here
-mod

 

RE: MLS Expansion

I believe there is another thread on this. My personal feeling is it should only expand when it has the capacity to take on another franchise.

 

RE: MLS Expansion

Short answer after you read back through this:

San Jose is definite next, then I think St Louis.. then Seattle.

Actually, though.. whoever is fastest with business plan, money and stadium approval from locals.

 

RE: MLS Expansion

whats the need for expansion?? why dont we adopt a promotion/relegation system LIKE EVERY OTHER COUNTRY.

bahh this really bugs the hell out of me. mls is trying to take a european/world sport, and americanize it. but the problem is a european/world sport that is presented no differently than our domestic sports (eg, closed league, playoffs) isnt going to be popular. if they had the promotion/relegation system, it would make the league truly unique and be able to differentiate itself on terms other than simply being "soccer". and i think it would attract a lot more fans than it is now.

my tolerance for mls wanes daily.

 

RE: MLS Expansion

I'll attempt to point out AGAIN that the US doesnt have the infrastucture in place for Pro/Rel. .. I TOO am getting tired of this discussion. It just goes round and round and some never bother to think beyond what they want to see as a fan.

Never mind that you actually have to have a system in place for it to work. And if we wanted to do things the same as Europe, we'd never have separated from England in the first place.

 

RE: MLS Expansion

I would think Seattle is a great choice and they have talked about a team going there forever. I wish they would get on it. Vancouver, Portland, and Seattle all have a good following for the USL. The thing that stinks about seattle is the stadium.

To get the stadium build for the SeaChickens they had to present it to the public as a grass surface so the stadium could be used for soccer in the future. Shortly after getting it passed - in rolls the field turf. Lame.

Silly Football. I cant stand that the daily email I get from ESPN includes 5 headlines on the NFL even tho I SPECIFICALLY told them not to bother me with that crap. I teach PE one period and I was out trying to teach 6th graders how to play american football. Talk about slit my wrists. What a horrible game for kids.

Sorry - end of rant. Also - sorry if you like football... Just me spouting off.

 

Rant away Jensers, its good for the soul. The problem even if there was grass on the Seachickens field (I say that as a Hawks fan) is MLS won't put an expansion team in a NFL stadium (seeing highlights from a Red Bulls or KC game w/50k empty seats is not a good thing).

The one thing I know about St. Louis is that its a Cardinals town, and the last time I looked the MLS season coincides w/MLB. However, if they build a soccer specific stadium, the MLS is gonna' come a callin'

 

Yeah - I guess you are right. On the field. I have heard that Paul Allen has talked about putting in a team, but with the new fee and the stadium it will be difficult.

After all my ranting, I would be lying if I said that I would not watch a seahawk play-off game - so maybe I am a hypocrite. When I was in 6th grade I read Brian Bosworth's book... So I guess I am a closet football fan - even tho I cant stand it.

 

I want to see the MLS go to the Promotion / Relegation system, but understand that we're not there yet.

I would like to see them go to a Spring/Fall season. i.e., start a bit earlier than they do now, take 4-6 weeks off for the summer and finish off in the fall. This will avoid competitions like the World Cup, will avoid some of the hottest days, and will line up better with the international transfer windows.

I would like to see it go to a single table, with some award/trophy for the team with the best record. This will give the regular season games more meaning, especially if you combine it with financial incentives.

I would like to see either the play-off reduced to 4 teams or the "MLS Cup" to occur during the season, ala Carling Cup. I think the current playoff system is bad for the MLS, but see the value of a cup not tied 100% to season record.

I would like the see the MLS schedule around International Fixture dates. Everyone else does it; if we want to grow as a league and get better talent, this needs to happen.

I would like to see the MLS winner (either season or cup) travel to England at the end of the season to play one or more Premiership teams. This could take place on a "cup fixture" date against a team already out of the cup in question. You could even award a trophy for it.

I would like to see the MLS move away from the single ownership model and salary caps. I understand why they started that way, but with the designated player rule in place, they need to gradually move away from it. Start by transferring ownership of DPs and veterans to the squads and by relaxing the salary cap even more, perhaps first by giving each team an additional DP slot and reducing the cap impact of such players (so there is more money for the rest of the squad).

The MLS should be at 16 teams after the next World Cup, all with their own, soccer-specific stadiums. It will be time to move to the next level.

 

I'd go along with that... but take Columbus. The last two years the weather on opening was absolutely miserable.. COULd run a little later, thoguh.

There already IS one. It's called the Supporters' Shield. Neither teams nor fans pay much attention to it

You think the current playoff system is bad, and it would be better if it were only four teams.. WHY?!!! Just "because?"
I'd be figuratively slitting my wrists in July instead of next week! What the f888 would all the weak sisters play for? We dont have relegation, remember? And what little collective marketing/TV money is divvied up isnt on league position.

Who is this 'Everyone Else?' So some teams lose a few players... so what! Gives the subs a chance to play and gives the teams with fewer Internationals a chance to more easily get some points. usually doesnt make any difference, though.

That's reasonable. So would I

Guess what, it is. Do you think AEG is just dumping teams to avoid losing money? There will ALWAYS be a CAP, collective bargaining slot and drafts per the NFL model and that's good. But the single owner system aint gonna last too much longer

It will move on... good lord willing and David Beckham healthy.

But I suggest you DONT hold your breath waiting for Pro/Rel. Aint gonna happen and if the FA thought for a minute they could dump it and get away with it, they'd do it in a flash. Same with several other Euro leagues. Tell ya what... if it was a good idea, Baseball would be doing it.

 

Promotion/Relegation cannot happen in the US. Europe is actually moving towards a Euro-wide American system. Professional sports is about money. English and European football were not when they started out.

For anybody to invest in a team that team needs to be in the top league so it will make money... otherwise the team won't even get started. MLS is starting from scratch and has to have investment from the get go. To invest you need to be guaranteed some future profit. If your team can get relegated the chances you make money will go down and nobody will invest in that because it is a riskier proposition. And you certainly aren't going to invest in a team in a small US city where you get, maybe, 500 fans a game. Those teams will go broke in a hearbeat because there is no serious US soccer fandom out there.

Anybody who wants relegation to happen can just forget about it.

By the way... the next level in Europe is the American way.

 

MLS gets substantially better every year. They make decisions I disagree with but in the big picture they've got it right. The complete lack of patience, compromise, and ability to look into the past and the future of some people is quite unbelivable. The unwillingness of some to
support the league and/or the national team never ceases to astound me. But it aint Arsenal or Chelsea or whoever it is they happen to be supporting this month so its just not worth watching I suppose.

- I think I said in another thread that expansion needs to be taken slowly. Get the ownership, get the stadium, and then get the team. Chivas is three years in and they are barely hanging above 10k a game and just fired their GM as a result. Houston looks to have turned out all right but that was extremely rushed and dangerous in my opinion. We can't afford to make mistakes in expansion. A bigger league doesn't necessarily make a better league. Garber seems to be getting ahead of himself in this and it worries me more than anything else with regard to the future of the league.

- I'd like to see the playoffs droped. Single table, if your on top of it at the end your the champion. Preki agrees with me! If we keep the playoffs keep it as is.

- US Open Cup and Super Liga really need to be emphasized more. Super Liga needs adjustments. Home and Away thats a true cup, none of this playing all the games in the US crap.

-I must say one trend which has left me disappointed is the locations of these stadiums. When I was in Chicago I thought I'll go take a look at Toyota Park, then I looked at a map! And this is one of the better situations. I'm not knoweldgable on Crew Stadium's local and Denver seems better than most but six stadiums built and the only one thats truly in the city is Toronto. Is it coincidence that the two teams with the best support DC and TFC are in the city?
I know why they build em out in the burbs, land, and local government cash primarily. But I'm such a snob for the city that its disheartening to see these stadiums going up in amidst the vanilla and identical three car garages of the burbs. Once upon a time the Cottage was out in the bush, hopefully these MLS stadiums won't always be.

As frustrating as it sometimes is MLS is much much quicker to adjust then other sports leagues, constant improvement is a trademark.

 

The USA is actually the perfect place to have a promotion relegation system.
- You can't really have a single table league with more than 20 teams in it and there are significantly more than 20 markets that could support a soccer team.
- Unlike most of Europe, we have market specific TV stations, allowing for local teams to get TV viewing
- We have the market potential ($$) to support a second and possible third division at mid-European levels

The standard US sports model of fixed teams, salary caps, parity, and drafts is not a good fit for soccer. The draft is a joke; the best players are obtained via transfers or through internal academy systems. NCAA is simply not competetive enough (look at BYU, who withdrew their soccer team from NCAA to form a USL PDL team because of the level of competetion).

(there is no relegation is baseball because the minor league teams are all affiliated with major league teams)

Yes, sports is all about the money, but having a promotion/relegation system will INCREASE the investment as it won't be limited to the 20 selected markets. Billionaire Joe Schmoe could start a Division 2 team, build a stadium, market well, and have a team in the US Premier League within 3 years. THAT, is the American dream.

 

Andy,

I think you don't have a good grasp of basic economics. What you are saying is just wishful thinking. It is not grounded in economic reality. There is hardly any money being made in MLS right now. Stadiums aren't exactly packed. A "Division 2" team won't make any money because not enough people go to watch soccer. And if a team falls out of the "1st Division" they won't make any money and will eventually go out of business.

I know you like the English/European way (I do too), but it is not going to make it in America because it is not financially viable. It is bad business. Nobody in their right mind is going to support a business that cannot generate a profit. The American system guarantees all the teams make a profit, the English system doesn't. Therefore people don't invest in teams like Watford and Reading, hell, even Fulham.... not to mention all of the Championship and League One/Two teams.

 

How about if the MLS brings a team to the great city of Detroit, MI? We do hold the record for most people in attendance for a soccer game in the US. We do have a stadium sitting idly in Pontiac. We have the largest concentration of Middle-Eastern people outside of the Middle-East, along with a large Hispanic population, so the fan base is there. Why Not?

 

Lyle. I am well aware of the economics involved. USL Division 1 and Division 2 are viable NOW. Some of the USL Division 1 teams average more fans at home games than the MLS.

What is different about Soccer to all other major sports in the US is that US League Soccer is not the world king. While South American and European basketball stars dream of playing in the NBA, and stars from everywhere dream of playing in MLB, this is not the case in soccer, nor will it ever be. At best, the US league will be one of the top tier leagues, but always with competition from the more established European leagues. This results in a different business dynamic and heck, even baseball team owners aren't guaranteed profits if they make bad business decisions.

 

Andy,

It isn't going to work at all. It would be nice if it could work, but it can't. Promotion/relegation is bad business. Multi-millionaires, who don't know jack about soccer, aren't going to do it for the fun of it. And if they are a billionaire they'll go and buy a British or European team that will make a lot more money.

On occaision there will be an Al Fayed to invest in a team for the fun of it or out of goodwill, but most investment will simply be about the bottom line. Some of the MLS teams aren't even owned by individuals, but investment groups who are certainly not in it for the love of the game.