Isreal setting a bad example?

yes jist

 

Nope, looked it up, "gist". Dammit!

 

I hate to ask another question without a solution, but Israel seems to be at the root of the whole problem. Whether it be 9/11, the American hostages in Iran in 1979/80, the current Israeli/Hezbollah conflict, or other, the Israelis are seemingly right there in the middle of it all.

Why is that? Why is it that the world hates Israel? Is it because they took the other countries land almost 60 years ago or what? This problem is the root that needs to be addressed before any long term solutions are answered.

Another thing regarding Israel....why does the US always have unconditional support for Israel in everything? In a world with a what can you do for me attitude, what advantage does the US gain in backing this country?

 

Deja vu. My associate and I had this conversation at lunch.

I would say much of the current hate focused on Israel is because land was quite literally taken from under the majority Muslim Palestinians after WWII. As far as the historical and biblical persecutions on both sides before that, you got me?

It seems that the U.S. has backed Israel forever, which is due in some part to the population of Jews in the U.S. and in some part because of the Biblical affiliation between Christians and Jews.

But be careful Tom, if people start questioning all these things a little too closely or a little too much, it does not take very long for some to start brandishing the "anti-semite" term in rebuttal.

By the way, it should be noted that there is a fairly large Christian population in Lebanon.

 

Yeah, I understand that. I am just looking for answers to the questions about Israel. I have nothing against Jews or any religions for that matter. For the record I am Roman Catholic.

Why was Israel given the land after WWII? Because they were persecuted in Poland and other parts of Europe by the Nazis? I am guessing that is the reason, but who were the idiots that decided to take that land away from the Muslims?

 

I actually did a little investigating at wikipedia, which i can recommend for a very short synopsis. Apparently their was a movement, the Zionist movement, to give back some of the land starting in the late 1800's to early 1900's, but after the tremendous persecution of the Jews in Europe before and during WWII, the movement gained popularity with the world (except the Arabs). Then skirmishes in the area turned into battles into wars, until Israel had pretty muched carved out a much bigger chunk of land than the world initially agreed to. In the process, almost one millinon Arabs left, forcefully or not, from what is now Israel, and nearly one million Jews from everywhere replaced them.

The magnetism of the Holy Land is very powerful.

 

Well have Jews and Muslims not been enemies forever. If all of Israel’s neighbors and a lot of other people, including apparently Mel Gibson, hate Israel it is understandable that they'd be in constant conflict.

As for the whole stealing land thing, that would leave some scars. If I were in that position I'd struggle with that. But to move forward it is not practical to hold 60 year old grudges in my opinion. For us to hold a grudge against Japan, Germany, and Italy in modern affairs would be very stupid. Israel is there to stay, it is unreasonable to expect the whole country and its entire population to pick up and move. I wish the Middle East would realize this and compromise rather than going on with this constant suicide bombings. Look if you really want peace as you say stop blowing up school buses and cafes, every time you do Israel simply retaliates, more of your kids die and you hold protests than do the whole cycle over again.

Really things would have been much simpler if Israel had established itself in Greenland or Siberia.

As for why were an constant love affair with Israel. We need an allie in the Middle East. They’re a democracy for one, they let woman drive cars and go to football games unlike many alternative allies in the region. They hold the power. The whole Jewish population thing could be part of it. They’re a stable country. They are just a lot more like us than any alternative so I guess we trust them. If we ever get in a real conflict with this nut job in Iran I for one will be very glad we have Israel on our side.

That said the fact that we give them billions of $$$$$ a year hardly puts us in a position to broker a peace deal. So why is it that were the ones always doing it rather than Switzerland or another alternative?

 

Yeah, that would be the League of Nations and/or United Nations, which I think we actually need, but their track record is little spotty.

 

Do not underestimate what you are saying here. Try talking some African-Americans or some American-Indians about getting over something. It is much easier to say that than to actually get over it. If I were an African-American or an American-Indian I would have a hard time getting over it.

As for why were an constant love affair with Israel. We need an allie in the Middle East. They’re a democracy for one, they let woman drive cars and go to football games unlike many alternative allies in the region. They hold the power. The whole Jewish population thing could be part of it. They’re a stable country. They are just a lot more like us than any alternative so I guess we trust them. If we ever get in a real conflict with this nut job in Iran I for one will be very glad we have Israel on our side.
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This is kind of part of my point. Israel is like us and the only reason they are like us is because of our help. Without the aid and help the US has given this country over the years, they would be like all of the other Middle-Eastern countries.

In all honesty Spencer, we did not need any allies in the Middle East. That is why we are in trouble in that part of the world. We pick and choose what battles to fight and we unconditonally back Israel which is dumb. They know no matter what they do our lame ass government will back them up.

One last thing, I hate it when people talk about a democracy like it is the only government. Perhaps it is a great government for some countries, but you cannot force it upon every country that does not have one. This does not mean I believe in communism and authoritarian governments around the world, but no all countries are like the US.

If we would have never helped the Israelis after World War II the problems we face now would not be nearly the problems they are now. And if I hear anyone call me anti-semitic or anything, I will be fired up. I am far from that. I am just providing insight into why the world hates Israel and in turn the US.

 

Tom wrote:
This is kind of part of my point. Israel is like us and the only reason they are like us is because of our help. Without the aid and help the US has given this country over the years, they would be like all of the other Middle-Eastern countries.

In all honesty Spencer, we did not need any allies in the Middle East. That is why we are in trouble in that part of the world. We pick and choose what battles to fight and we unconditonally back Israel which is dumb. They know no matter what they do our lame ass government will back them up.

One last thing, I hate it when people talk about a democracy like it is the only government. Perhaps it is a great government for some countries, but you cannot force it upon every country that does not have one. This does not mean I believe in communism and authoritarian governments around the world, but no all countries are like the US.

If we would have never helped the Israelis after World War II the problems we face now would not be nearly the problems they are now. And if I hear anyone call me anti-semitic or anything, I will be fired up. I am far from that. I am just providing insight into why the world hates Israel and in turn the US.[/quote]


I wrote:
First off, I know it is hard for some to drop grudges, I acknowledged that in my post and I'll acknowledge it again. That does not change the fact that in order for us to move forward it must be done. Holding this grudge and continuing to act on it only makes this situation harder. The bus full of eight year old kids had nothing to do with taking your land. So please stop trying to kill them.

Second, I think Israel and the Israeli population deserve a whole lot more credit for constructing a modern country with modern values. To say they'd be no different than their neighbors if not for our money is in my book absurd. The Jewish communities that relocated to Israel brought their progressive values with them. And no I’m not saying all middle eastern countries are women beating states, obviously some are not but undoubtedly some are. Israel is the most progressive country in the Middle East and they should be given credit for that.

Third, I don't know my history regarding Middle Eastern climate in the 1940's. Perhaps it would have been possible as you say to take no stands and have no allies in the region. I really don't know. There are many possible scenarios in which I can think it would have been nice to have a foothold in the Middle East. We wouldn't have for example wanted the Soviet Union to take control of the whole ME and like 90% of the oil in the world with it. If we had no ally in the region and such a situation occurred we would have been in deep do-do.

Our government has done stupid things time after time. We can argue about it but we can't undo it. The bottom line is today we do need an ally in the ME. That is simply undeniable, and there is no better ally to have than Israel.

Finally, democracy is the best form of government in the modern world. Unfortunately we appear to have a Theocracy under this administration. Anyway I do wish every country was a democracy, but it really is never going to happen. I don't agree with going around with a stick and forcing democracy. It appears that’s what Iraq was all about and I don't support it. I disagree with you, democracy can work anywhere if installed in a correct manner. See Japan which overturned what; thousands of years of non democracy, and in 60 years have flourished under the system and become one of the top five economic powers in the world. Democracy is the best government. It’s the best way forward for the world. I will believe that until someone shows me a better system. That said we should let places find it on they’re own not through war.

No I don’t think you’re an anti-semite you just disagree with Israel. I may disagree with the NAACP from time to time, that doesn’t make me a racist. Name-calling gets us no where.

 

Good points Spencer. You are right in the fact that we cannot undoe history and what is done is done.

I still do not think we necessarily need an ally in the middle east. It gets back my original point in why the United States unconditonally backs Israel. What good has supporting Israel done for the US?

Democracy is a great form of government and I will not dispute that, but the way this administration is trying to force it upon other countries is insane. We cannot change the way a country thinks and feels about government and the way to run a country overnight. It would be nice, but that is wishful thinking. Not that you were saying that Spencer, but I am just making a point.

The US has obviously pissed off a lot of Muslims over the years for in my opinion backing Israel through thick and thin. I wish we would just let Israel fight their own battles. Why is it that when Israel was given land in the 1940's that they decided toi take more and more and more from the Muslims? That is not right at all. These extremist groups have it out for Israel and one day they will cause some huge problems that makes this little conflict right now seem like a cat fight. The worst is yet to come.

 

Tom.. they only took the land that they occupied after being attacked by their neighbors.
Let's say that Mexico decided to launch a war on us and we stopped short of Mexico City.. but kept parts of the northern Mexican states as a buffer...

And I would like to remind you of two things:

1. The US has also supported the relative democracy of Lebanon, and the somewhat democracy of Egypt, as well as Jordan.

2. Israel NEVER did anything against ANY other country UNLESS it was attacked from that country.

- When Israel last occupied southern Lebanon, it was as much to protect Lebanese Christians from the muslims trying to take over the country, as it was to protect itself

I respect your views, and your right to express them and if you can refute some of the above, I'd be glad to look and perhaps modify my opinion. But you are almost totally wrong in your view.

Meantime:
Why dont you guys make a note of the STONE SILENCE from the Arab League about this fiasco?
Why do you think that is?

HERE is what it's about..
http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD123006

 

Oh, yes... Better to have interminable numbers of resolutions, cease fires and high level agreements like the Oslo Accords.

Fcuk you, too! :twisted:

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To set it straight, the Israelis have had their own episodes of terror for effect, in fact the partition was indeed moved forward under impetus of terrorist activities against the British by none other than Menachem Begin, who later became PM and signatory in the Camp David Accord, where Egypt and Israel agreed to not war on each other again.

The Egyptian PM, Sadat, was murdered for his effort... and not just by a lone looney.

But that was the only lasting 'accord' between Israel and the Arab World.

Why? Because Arafat never had any intention of living up to what he agreed to in Oslo... he might have WANTED to, but he was held hostage by his own terror wing in the PLO and by those who thought he was weak and stupid, which we now know as Hamas.

Do I have to remind you that Israel only recently gave back a lot of their occupied land? Did that gain them ANYTHING.. even for a short time?