Fanatic Violence at Football Matches

I am currently working on my Masters thesis in my Sport Management program at Northern Illinois University. Hopefully I'll have the first draft done today to turn in.

My topic is Fanatic Violence: An Examination of Spectator Violence and the Best Practice Methods Used To Prevent and Control Such Incidents

SKIP TO THE QUESTION AT THE BOTTOM IF YOU DON"T WANT TO READ THROUGH ALL OF THIS

I am mainly focusing on stadium disasters and incidents of hooliganism throughout the 20th century and into the new millenium. Because such incidents seem to be more of a problem in Europe, most of my incidents center around Europe, and particularly England.

The few disasters that I have discussed are Wembley 1923, not a disaster but a prelude to future crushing that would result from poor crowd management. Ibrox 1971, Heysel 1985, Hillsborough 1989 and the resulting Taylor Report.

I go on to explain the relative calm in the 90s following the Taylor Report then examine the rise in hooliganism at the turn of the century surrounding Euro 2000 with England's qualifying matches away and the violence surrounding those matchs.

Finally I end talking about Italian Ultras and how they have replaced English hooligans as the real problem facing UEFA and football officials in Europe and around the world.

QUESTION:

What I was wondering is what everyone's opinion on the issue of fan violence and crowd disorder is. Thank God we have not had any disasters in recent history and most incidents seem to be one to two isolated people acting erratically. Do you still envision it as a problem, in England, Scotland, Italy? If so do you fear going to certaing matches because of it?

Sorry for the long post it's just a topic that interests me surrounding the game of football.

 

You guys know more about the history of it than myself, but from this outsider's perspective, it would seem that socio-economic factors are a significant contributor to the violence. Obviously, there will always be certain pockets of people with violent tendencies, but it would seem to me, that when segments of the general population start getting involved is when things really start to boil over.

And, Don, lookie, lookie, Luton Town v. Millwall today!
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/match?id=233701&cc=5901

Your timing lately is impeccable.

 

Heh.... don's right.

The only thing we'd differ on, then, is 'Cause and Effect' of the classism that feeds this 'acting out'. But then we'd have to move the thread.

Worrying to me that the recent SOB discussion had people on the discussion forums who wanted to see some of that here. I got news. US cops are highly aware of them.
Chicago cops may not have done much to stop the radical wing of the Fire Ultra's but Columbus police also patrol the OSU campus and they were ready. Result: No problem with away hooligans, anymore.

Yet another chance to say I love Toronto traveling fans! And the Mexico fans at Columbus are good too!

 

I've just recently spent some time abroad and attended a football match nearly every weekend. The ocassional fight broke out amongst rival supporters, but nothing to the exent seen in the 80's. Was the violence enough to keep me from attending a match in Scotland or England? No, I found the fervent environment intriguing. A crowd would work themselves into a frenzy and would raise their voices in either support for their club or disdain of the opposition. Individuals were not bold enough to act alone and challenge the opposing supporters. It would take a group of individuals for any real violence to come about. May stem from a lack of confidence to attack another or may be the whole mob mentality that builds in groups.

Violence has followed football for decades and I don't see it changing anytime soon. It may not be on the level of the 70's or 80's, but it is still present. The powers that be have done all they can to limit pitch invasions, missles being thrown on the field, barriers between rival supporters and the general traffic to and from matches. A disaster to the scale of Heysel or Hillsborough is not likely to occur again with the restrictions in place.

bearzfan4lfe... you may be interested in a novel written by Bill Buford entitled "Among the Thugs". A relatively short read, but gripping material concerning all levels of football violence in England and abroad. Everything from violence travelling Man Utd supporters in Turin and Dusseldorf to the National Front uprise in the 80's. A fantastic first hand account of a talented journalist. If you can't find a copy I would be willing to send you mine.

All the best on your thesis. I am not looking forward to writing mine in a few months time.

 

Hitler and Churchill were both of the opinion that war is to men what childbirth is to women; in other words, until you give birth you are not a woman, or until you fight in a war, you are not a man. Many countries are war-free, so instead, football violence must suffice.

I am of the opinion there are two distinct types of football violence, the first I would call loser violence.

In 2005 I was at the Under 20 World Cup in the Netherlands, watching China play Turkey. At one point in the game when China was leading, a Turkish fan broke a seat off its bearings and threw it at a Chinese player who was doing a throw-in. That angered me, but what angered me even more is nothing was done about it. No stewards came down, the ref didn't react, the players didn't react, no PA announcement, and certainly no mention of it in the media. To me that was shocking and a real eye opener.

That was loser violence. Fans, many of whom are pissed up, get angry when their team loses and respond. Players can also do it, but minus the drink. Think back to 2006 world cup qualifier when Turkey beat Switzerland but Switzerland advanced to the World Cup on away goals. Turkey got upset and reacted with violence.

Or the 2007 under 20 world cup in Canada. Chile lost and were upset, so the players fought the police and smashed up their bus to the tune of $35 thousand, that FIFA paid! Apparently FIFA is responsible for petulant violence, not the players, the coach, or the federation.

The other type is pre-planned. These are people who set out on match day looking for a scrum. They are low life, but many of them still love their team. They go to all the games, stand the whole time, chant the whole time, etc.

Many of these groups are political but I dispute the idea that many of these so-called ultra groups are radical right-wing. Many are also radical left-wing, or something else altogether. Marseilles, Celtic, or AEK Athens would be examples of radical left-wing ultras.

This violence is hard to control. When two sets of fans want to fight, what can you do? The best you can do is try and control it.

I've spent a lot of time in Holland, in particular Rotterdam, so I am fairly versed in the Feyenoord-Ajax rivalry, which is as intense as any. This is just as much a rivalry between two cities as it is two clubs. I've been to two, one at each place. There the authorities do their best to limit the violence. In Rotterdam away fans come on special trains that stop right at the station. They get off and go right into a covered walk that takes them into the stadium. They sit in their own section in the upper bowl, the seats beneath them are empty so they can't drop things. The sides are walled in and there are police literally side-by-side all the way up on both sides. No fans are sitting beside this section either.

This works for in-stadium violence. This is why Holland will never suffer the way Spain does, for example last week when Bolton fans were beat by baton-wielding police even after following their orders.

Out of stadium violence is near impossible. In 2005 before and after Ajax played Feyenoord in Rotterdam there were riots. I don't know how to stop that, it's just the culture.

At the end of the day I guess you'd have to say violence is just human nature. Tell me a year when there was no war going on somewhere.

For over 99% of human history, violence was the only option. Diplomacy is a new invention. Did you ever wonder why Alexander the Great was called great? If Stalin or Hitler or Saddam or Pol Pot were born in 356, they would be called great too.

 

George the Great??.................. :wow: .... :3d laughing: ..... :shock:

 

Thanks guys, I appreciate the book suggestions Don and McBrides, good conversation about a topic that has interested me from the time I first began watching soccer during th 2006 World Cup and they segregated the Polish and German fans.

Last night I was sitting in my Facilities class and actually corrected my professor when he mentioned the Hillsborough disaster. He thought I was so knowledgable about the incident that he offered to have me teach a class of his next time around.

I plan on doing my doctorate work on a very similar work and turn this thesis into the beginning of that. My paper is at about 82 pages now as I just turned in my first draft, but I could have easily made it 800 pages.

I mainly focused on the famous stadium disasters such as Heysel, Hillsborough, Ibrox, etc. Mainly focusing on the United Kingdom and briefly (and by briefly I mean abot ten pages) touched on the new wave of violence that is occurring in places like Italy and Turkey.

FFCinPCB, I did not touch on any of the socio-economic or historical conditions that lead to the ultra movements that began in Italy and even showed themselves in Spain for a while. If I had more time I would have as it is very interesting, I will most likely do extensive research into this area for my doctoral degree as the ultra movement in Italy is a way of life, not just match day phenomenon.

More than just the enviornment and extent of hooliganism I am interested in ways to prevent it and have people enjoy their matches and atmosphere while being safe. Many argued that the Taylor Report and its recommendations ruined the atmosphere the top division of English football used to contain. They belived this in so much that the Premier League launched an inquiry into how to regain the atmosphere that the league seemed to be missing.

Unfortunately I am only 22 and only a recent soccer fan so I do not know what the atmosphere used to look, sound, and feel like except from what I gather from secondary sources so it is hard for me to comment on today's Premier League compared with the pasts top divisions.

I do know that while there may be more atmosphere at Serie A and Turkish League matches, it seems that is developed out of the fear of violence and spread of hatred rather than the support for ones club.

Very long post here, sorry, just wanted to thank you all for jumping in on it. It's hard to get co-workers here to talk about things such as this I work at NIU Athletics so that helps as there are a lot of football, soccer, fans here that are int he same program as I am in. But when I get home nobody has a clue what I'm saying, which is nice in a way.

So thanks guys, appreciate it, hopefully I can get some things published...we will see.

 

You are well on your way, bearzfan. We'll get to look back and say we knew you when.

Keep up the good work.

 

Don. Just a note re: Rangers. Have you heard the Celtic chants? The religous divide exists on both sides of Glasgow.

 

I would think that there is a decrease in violence at the bigger team venues because of the corporate purchase of seats and boxes. I believe that How Soccer Explains the World touches on this with regards to Chelsea, but I imagine we have all seen it first hand in other sports. The ticket prices have skyrocketed to a point where it is very expensive to attend games.

For example, the Laker games have changed in terms of fans at the games. It appears as though you see more "corporate" families attending because the company purchased the tickets, and there are "fans" who seem to be more interested in being seen on the television while being on the phone rather than get into the game.

That is another example of the socioeconomic factor impacting the fan base that would lead to a decrease in violence.

 

That's a good point about corporations taking over many of the tickets and handing them out to clients, employees, etc. That might explain why such violence has seemed to migrate from English domestic league matches and English home national matches to Italian domestic matches and English national team matches away.

Places like Italy and Turkey haven't quite embraced the same culture that has taken over La Liga, The Bundesliga or the EPL. S
o violence erupts during Italian and Turkish league matches and at their home national team matches because they are used to it on their home soil. The same goes for most other countries in Europe outside of Germany, England, and Spain.

So it then becomes an outlet for English, Spanish, and German fans to become violent without the fear of being reprimanded to the severity that they would be if they acted the same way in their home country. Also, security and crowd management practices in these three countries have been and continue to be the model for developing soccer nations to emmulate.

Another thing that got me interested in this is the soccer coach at NIU often travels through London to recruit and as he passed through there in 2006 he stopped and sat in the players box for the Ch***ea v. Fulham game at the Cottage when the pitch invasion ocurred after the game. He gave me the program from that game and told me the story, it was very interesting.

 

A short stint on youtube will dig up many recent instances of the hate and bile that many Rangers spew, whether at home or away. I would gather they are one of the worst clubs to have as your European competition, as their fans routinely create disturbances as visitors and have caused the club to be fined more than any other I am aware of recently.

 

FFC. Many of the former Eastern block nations's teams make Rangers look like Catholic schoolboys in comparison. And yes, while Youtube does have some disgusting Rangers fan vidoes, it also has some from Celtic.

Look, I'm not defending Rangers - I find their attitudes disgusting; I'm just saying that Celtic is just as bad, despite their being more beloved by Americans.

Also, while less publicized, some of the rivalries in Northern Ireland are just as bad, if not worse.

 

I've been following Celtic for awhile now, and I have no apprehension in saying Celtic is not as bad as Rankers.

Did they used to be? Arguably, yes, maybe even worse. But Celtic came to the capitalist reality that continuing, promoting, or even ignoring that type of attitude by their fans was undeniably detrimental to their goal, which is making Celtic a Club, and brand, that everyone everywhere can enjoy and be a part of.

And the Celtic fans and supporters are smart enough to realize the reality of the situation also. I don't get the same feeling about that other Glasgow team's fans.

 

To be fair, much of the sectarian vitriol between the "Old Firm" clubs (Rangers, of course, in particular) has been eliminated inside the corridors of the club offices as well as on the terraces. Having said that, the hatred between the two sides is still very clear and very visible...

Rangers supporters, to their credit, have stopped their FTP nonsense, or at least limited it quite a bit -- yet they still get away with singing "Big Jock Knew" about the manager who literally died trying to get Scotland into the World Cup. I don't think it's entirely right to say that Celtic fans are just as bad as they are, particularly in recent years. Their fans' behavior during the 2003 UEFA Cup Final in Seville was rewarded with a fair play award; meanwhile, the Catalan/Spanish media have already seen more than enough of Rangers supporters after they trashed Barcelona during prior to their CL meeting.

Some of the behavior and ongoing feuds between the two clubs are petty in the extreme, though. A perceived slight from either side, no matter how insignificant it may be, can be (and usually are) blown way out of proportions. Both sides are always on a lookout for a way to knock the other down, it seems.

 

I'm not sure who on this forum has been to Parkhead for a match, but I had the pleasure to attend one about 4 months ago. In my assessment, much of the racism, religous divide and violent actions have drift by the way side in Glasgow. There is the obvious rivalry between the two clubs, but the religous aspect rarely comes up during conflict. To be honest, those who still hold on to the deep seeded religous divide are doing so for more of a nostalgic purpose than truely supporting their views or persecuting the oppositions beliefs. Rather foolish in my opinion.

The Taylor Report eliminated the immediate threat of over crowding and the "crush" that plagued many English football grounds. Making grounds meet a mandatory code of design and safety was the focal point of the report. Opposing fans are kept seperate from each other as much as possible by stewards, barriers and police. That is nothing new to football though.

As noted in previous posts, most modern football violence occurs in Italy, Turkey and Germany at times. These nations seem to lack a strong governing body and clubs have done next to nothing to remedy the situation. It seems that it is almost encouraged in Italy at times. Perhaps harsher punishments centering around deduction of league points needs to be initiated to alleviate the distasteful actions at the ground. Racism is a vulgar problem and I highly doubt that sport will be the instrument utilized to eliminate it, but it could be a step in the right direction.

 

There's not really any violence in Germany due to football. They have heavy police protection at games, fans yell at each other along the way from the train station to the stadium, but that's about it. I can't remember the last time a fan was killed at a football match in Germany. Germany is probably very similar to England in the way it controls its fans. Football is also very popular again in German and attracts more spectators to its game on average than any other league in Europe right now... even England.

Any far right activities (anti-black or Muslim or anti-semitic comments) in the stands get squashed pretty quick as well.

In France though, there's some violence. A fan was killed last year in Paris after he and some other French-Muslims tried to beat up a Jewish kid and a French police officer shot one of the French-Muslims.